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White Supremacy in Christianity

Muffled

Jesus in me
I think some christians happen to be racists; much like how some atheists, hindus, etc happen to be racists. For the most part, christianity is pretty neutral towards race as a whole, I feel.

Now, there are certain denominations that are rooted in racism, and it's not just limited to christianity (such as volkisch heathenry, when plenty of heathen groups aren't racist). Those kinds of people might use their religious views to shield their racism. Then again, one can (and does) bend any religious view to fit with their biases.

 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I'm not sure I've ever heard a white supremacist use the Bible to shield their racism and bigotry. Got an example of how it is possibly happening?

The KKK, which often invoked the *BIBLE to justify its racist and anti-Semitic ideology, advocated limits on immigration, and Klansmen boycotted Jewish and Roman Catholic merchants. The Ku Klux Klan added Communism to its demonology in the 1930s, and the Klan was responsible for the bombing of synagogues and the burning of black churches during the civil rights move- ment of the 1950s and 1960s.

The problem with saying this is that a lot of people would turn around and say "Are you saying Christianity is racist"? Nope. You asked a question, and it was just given an answer.

Cheers.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yeah, but you said to the other person "that's why you are not a scholar". So this answer does not suffice because you said that statement as if you were a scholar.

So I think in this case you didnt think enough prior to responding.
That was not my intent in what I said. That was not the context. It was like saying, "That's why they don't give you the keys to car, because you're a crappy driver". That's the context I meant.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You have repeated this twice. Same rhetoric. Why not provide an explanation instead? If you dont think the woman was denied her daughters exorcism because she was a Syrophoenician, then what is your explanation?

Dont keep repeating "Phd". It doesnt make a difference. After all, you are the one who brought of the statement "You are not a scholar" at another person.

Strange. Very strange.
Not sure what you're going on about. She was the one who brought up PhD. I was just simply repeating her words back to her. And I DID offer an explanation of the verse. She was responding/ignoring that article I linked to.Follow the arrows back in the quotes. You'll find it. I did my due diligence.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Not sure what you're going on about. She was the one who brought up PhD. I was just simply repeating her words back to her. And I DID offer an explanation of the verse. She was responding/ignoring that article I linked to.Follow the arrows back in the quotes. You'll find it. I did my due diligence.

So what’s your explanation?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
That was specifically addressed in the link I sent you, and in my brief response touching on that. To put it in the post here, from that article linked to:

Jews in Jesus’ day sometimes referred to Gentiles as “dogs.” In Greek, this word is kuon, meaning “wild cur” (Matthew 7:6; Luke 16:21; Philippians 3:2). Non-Jews were considered so unspiritual that even being in their presence could make a person ceremonially unclean (John 18:28). Much of Jesus’ ministry, however, involved turning expectations and prejudices on their heads (Matthew 11:19; John 4:9–10). According to Matthew’s narrative, Jesus left Israel and went into Tyre and Sidon, which was Gentile territory (Matthew 15:21). When the Canaanite woman approached and repeatedly asked for healing, the disciples were annoyed and asked Jesus to send her away (Matthew 15:23).

At this point, Jesus explained His current ministry in a way that both the woman and the watching disciples could understand. At that time, His duty was to the people of Israel, not to the Gentiles (Matthew 15:24). Recklessly taking His attention from Israel, in violation of His mission, would be like a father taking food from his children in order to throw it to their pets (Matthews 15:26). The exact word Jesus used here, in Greek, was kunarion, meaning “small dog” or “pet dog.” This is a completely different word from the term kuon, used to refer to unspiritual people or to an “unclean” animal.

Jesus frequently tested people to prove their intentions, often through response questions or challenges (see John 4:16–18; and 4:50–53). His response to the Canaanite woman is similar. In testing her, Jesus declined her request and explained that she had no legitimate expectation of His help. The woman, however, lived out the principle Jesus Himself taught in the parable of the persistent widow (Luke 18:1–8). Her response proved that she understood fully what Jesus was saying, yet had enough conviction to ask anyway (Matthew 15:27). Jesus acknowledged her faith—calling it “great”—and granted her request (Matthew 15:28).

So, according to both the context and language involved, Jesus wasn’t referring to the Canaanite woman as a “dog,” either directly or indirectly. He wasn’t using an epithet or racial slur but making a point about the priorities He’d been given by God. He was also testing the faith of the woman and teaching an important lesson to His disciples.
If you think Jesus was racist based on a reading of that text in that manner, there is nothing I can see anywhere else, either in the rest of the gospels, or in any of the teaching of the early church that was racist in tone or nature. It seems you may be taken a questionable reading of that text alone to conclude something the rest of the evidence contradicts.

I can concur that Kunariois means little dog. I dont know about pet dog, but that seems like an inference.

Nevertheless, in your own article the writer is speaking about "priorities". Thus, a woman in need of her daughters exorcism is not a priority? Also have you considered the more hellenistic uses of Kunariois does not mean the house dog instead of a stray, but just "dog"? This is the difference between choosing apologetics and actual linguistics based on the writing. Anyway, since the thesis is that this is referring to a house dog or a pet dog, yet it is signifying the importance of the Jews in comparison to a Greek, specific ethnicity.

One could easily interpret that as a racist theological position by default but Jesus changed his mind later when the woman was submitting to him. Yet, the author of the two gospels is clearly indicating Jesus as one who clearly differentiated between the ethnicities prior to helping her.

Peace.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I can concur that Kunariois means little dog. I dont know about pet dog, but that seems like an inference.

Nevertheless, in your own article the writer is speaking about "priorities". Thus, a woman in need of her daughters exorcism is not a priority?
I think the intent of the gospel writer was to tie that in with the Jewish expectation of the Messiah. It seems he uses this story to illustrate how the Messiah was to first come heal the Jews, and then the world. That seems the focus of the author, not Jesus insulting non-Jews. That would be contrary to everything else they portray him as, which is the opposite of anti-otherism. He was about healing the whole world and breaking down divisions. Or should I say, that was the focus and intent of the early Church portrayed within the gospel stories.

Also have you considered the more hellenistic uses of Kunariois does not mean the house dog instead of a stray, but just "dog"?
I think the context of the story will help for ease of reference,

21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.​

I think the article I linked to seemed a reasonable reference. If you look at the story above, Jesus doesn't answer the woman's pleas, as a setup for the frustrated disciples to come and prompt the lesson about Jesus to be taught to the gospel's reader/listener. Jesus's response is an answer to the question of Messianic authority questions the audience members may have, which would be present in Matthew's community. It is having Jesus answer that audience members possible questions by having him fulfill scripture that he would come to Israel first.

Furthermore, as far as the dog at the table not being a pet, I'm not sure our notion of a housepet might not be getting in the way here. However dogs had human relationships in Israel, it is clear in the story that the type of dog she had in mind when she heard Jesus, was one that had a household "master". That's not a stray dog, some mangey, unclean animal, but one within the house of its owner, the "master's table", the eat crumbs from.

She is showing humility in her ask, letting the Jews who may think they are something above other human beings that Jesus saw this confession of faith to be of higher truth that would be rewarded, than mere claims of being the "chosen people". Another of Matthew's themes in his Jesus.

So, no, all told, I don't think it was meant as an insult. I don't think that bears up in the language, in the context, nor in the character of Jesus the author of Matthew wrote throughout the gospel of that name.

This is the difference between choosing apologetics and actual linguistics based on the writing. Anyway, since the thesis is that this is referring to a house dog or a pet dog, yet it is signifying the importance of the Jews in comparison to a Greek, specific ethnicity.

One could easily interpret that as a racist theological position by default but Jesus changed his mind later when the woman was submitting to him. Yet, the author of the two gospels is clearly indicating Jesus as one who clearly differentiated between the ethnicities prior to helping her.

Peace.
As I pointed out above just now, the story is to combat that self-view of being the chosen ones better than others. Anti-racism is how the story goes, in language, context, characters, intended audience, etc. It says, "Jesus is the Messiah, and he is against racism. He honors faith above all else." That's the message.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
do you think white supremacists use christianity to shield their racism and bigotry?


if so, how does it align with christianity or deter from it? would jesus be amused or approve?

There is a willing collusion between literalistic Christianity and racism in white America because both attitudes promote wilfull ignorance. It is quite easy to denounce racism via the teachings of Jesus.

2020 Faith Vote Reflects 2016 Patterns
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
That translates to, "love your kind(of people) as you do yourself."
This feels like an example of an "according to you" thing you just said.

The Bible does not relegate the word "neighbor" to mean only those "of your kind".

Besides - even if that was what it meant (it doesn't) - the Lord covered His bases,

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you" (Matthew 5:44)
 
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