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If God Writes Something With the Stars...

As an atheist, would you believe in God if this happened?

  • yes

    Votes: 4 28.6%
  • no, I would search for or look out for answers the scientific method could provide.

    Votes: 6 42.9%
  • no. Other reasons.

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • no, I would rather believe in aliens moving the stars, instead

    Votes: 1 7.1%

  • Total voters
    14

Heyo

Veteran Member
What a terrible, terrible evasion! His question is not different than yours in the OP by so much as a hairs-breadth!

And I think that means that you didn't ask your OP question with any honest intention at all.
It-is-the-mark-of-an-educated-mind-to-be-able-to-entertain-a-thought-without-accepting-it..jpg


I think @thomas t here simply and humbly admits that he isn't that educated and has difficulties handling hypotheticals. I don't see any dishonest intentions. Hanlons's Razor is a great tool to keep a positive image of man.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Would you believe him:
a message like "hey, believe Jesus, he is my beloved son!"... and let's assume for a moment there are no language issues.
So when God allocates the stars in a way that we read this message, would you believe in God then?

I'm asking all posters from the atheist side...

best regards

Astrologers believe that the stars determine human events. They are right, but not in the way that they think.

Just as the hands of a clock tell time, motion of stars also tell time. Thus, if one knew that at 3PM, a dog would walk around the corner and bite someone, they could express that time either by the hands of a clock or the motion of the stars.

In other words, stars are merely a clock, that marks the passage of time.

The trick to predicting future events is to find a psychic who is very accurate about time (and few are). Then create predictions about those events happening when the stars are in a certain position.

For example, in Revelation (a chapter of the bible) a psychic predicted that President George W. Bush would attack Iraq, according to the bible, W. Bush had the soul of a demon that had escaped from the bottomless pit of hell. A psychic should be able to narrow down when that attack was to occur. Indeed, it portends the end of the world, and many civilizations around the world, recorded the same predictions. For example, the Mayan calendar (previously used by the Olmec Civilization) predicts the end of the world quite soon, and that a dragon God will destroy it.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
I did have honest intentions, EH
I'm going to slightly modify my answer: that would be evidence that someone named Jesus was the son of the creator of *those stars*.

Why is my counter question so difficult to answer? What sort of evidence would lead you to decide your beliefs are wrong and that some others are correct?
The question is so difficult because I never thought that through yet.
Actually, I never would give up my faith, I think.
If there are the two options:
either give up my faith, or
... start thinking about how to reconcile it with the evidence...
I would never opt for 1.
This is at least what I suppose to be my own reaction.

What a terrible, terrible evasion! His question is not different than yours in the OP by so much as a hairs-breadth!
read this:

Interestingly atheists have little difficulty with that hypothetical whereas believers, confronted with the "What if <other miracle>?" counter question, often react as you did in #7.
atheists have little difficulty with that one as compared to theists...? I agree.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
But let's assume that it was the actual stars and all possibilities of illusions etc. were removed. I still don't know how you would tell the difference between God and that of highly advanced aliens, simply using the message of the bible to deceive us for whatever reason?
No, this is part of the game, I think,
the edit function was still there so I edited the reply options to include the aliens option.

Any poster is entitled to alter his vote.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
Do not ask a question if you are not willing to answer it's counter yourself imho.
what kind of rule is this?
I somtimes accept gifts that I don't offer to others, either.
For my town I use a facebook group called "share and care", you just go and ask for what you want.
If you have to offer something, you can do it there too.
It's only about giving things away for free, not selling. You need a certain cable? sometimes people have two and offer one for free.
In my opinion, that's totally fine.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Would you believe him:
a message like "hey, believe Jesus, he is my beloved son!"... and let's assume for a moment there are no language issues.
So when God allocates the stars in a way that we read this message, would you believe in God then?

I'm asking all posters from the atheist side...

best regards

Let me know when God does write such a message, and I'll let you know then.

Now that I've answered your question, let me ask you this. If God does exist and wanted to demonstrate his existence, don't you think showing himself would be much less arduous than writing a message in the stars?
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
let me ask you this. If God does exist and wanted to demonstrate his existence, don't you think showing himself would be much less arduous than writing a message in the stars?
yes. In principle yes.
according to the Bible, last time he showed up they put him on the cross though...
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
yes. In principle yes.
according to the Bible, last time he showed up they put him on the cross though...

So you're saying he's afraid to show himself for fear of being put on a cross again?
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
So you're saying he's afraid to show himself for fear of being put on a cross again?
no.
I compare it to the experiences made by a close contact of mine.
She travelled to a country that had conservative clothing rules for the inhabitants of that country.
She went to the beach in beach clothing ... and everyone stared at her breasts.
No, she wasn't afraid of anything,
it just got on her nerves.

That's the way how God must feel if he would come into an environment in which every other person wants to kill him...

This is my take on the issue.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
no.
I compare it to the experiences made by a close contact of mine.
She travelled to a country that had conservative clothing rules for the inhabitants of that country.
She went to the beach in beach clothing ... and everyone stared at her breasts.
No, she wasn't afraid of anything,
it just got on her nerves.

That's the way how God must feel if he would come into an environment in which every other person wants to kill him...

This is my take on the issue.

So God was annoyed when Jesus was crucified? And the reason he doesn't make an appearance in any form is because of that annoyance? Annoyance with people that have been dead for almost two millennia? Talk about holding a grudge!!
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
But let's assume that it was the actual stars and all possibilities of illusions etc. were removed. I still don't know how you would tell the difference between God and that of highly advanced aliens, simply using the message of the bible to deceive us for whatever reason?
About the best you could do would be to ask yourself which is most likely, or better, which is the simpler answer (Occam's Razor).

Because let's face it, you would have to make a lot of assumptions about those aliens: that they know our relgious beliefs and books, that they have a reason to deceive us, that they are still natural, living beings that have the capacity to move stars around in the universe so as to be seen as letters from a single vantage point (ours), and on and on and on...

In that scenario, I truly think it might be easier to accept the God hypothesis
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I don't see how the scientific method would help explain such a phenomenon. To move stars light years away from each other to spell out words when 1. It's likely impossible to move stars regardless of how technologically advanced you are, and even if it weren't you're moving hundreds of stars. 2. I'm no expert but I believe Albert Einstein may have proven that it's impossible to move at the speed of light. Some of these stars are decades away from each other in light years so for it to happen overnight? Impossible (not accounting for wormholes). 3. It requires there to be extraterrestrials that are so dedicated in making atheists on Earth believe in what was assumed to be a man-made God that they would go through such extreme lengths (it can't be easy to arrange hundreds of stars overnight).

Doesn't Occam's Razor apply here? There's many more assumptions to say there is a scientific explanation for it while to believe God arranged the stars takes only two assumptions: 1. That God exists and 2. That God arranged the stars.
I read this after I just posted, and have to admit that you got there before I did.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
what kind of rule is this?
I somtimes accept gifts that I don't offer to others, either.
For my town I use a facebook group called "share and care", you just go and ask for what you want.
If you have to offer something, you can do it there too.
It's only about giving things away for free, not selling. You need a certain cable? sometimes people have two and offer one for free.
In my opinion, that's totally fine.
You are asking others to be open minded when you yourself choose not to be given a set of hypothetical evidence. That is a completely different thing than the irrelevant examples you provided.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
So God was annoyed when Jesus was crucified? And the reason he doesn't make an appearance in any form is because of that annoyance? Annoyance with people that have been dead for almost two millennia? Talk about holding a grudge!!
you know, I suppose that Jesus is God.
But even if it's tow seperate entities... this doesn't change anything... or would you be keen to go to the very place where they murdered your child and say hi?
In case you do:
note that, according to the Bible, Jesus is set to reappear on earth, not God the father.
He would certainly come across as a deity then, I think.

When I wrote the answer it was on the premise that not much has been changed during the two last millennia, and people would react similarly to how they behaved two millennia ago.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Ignorance is not unethical, wilful ignorance is. There is nothing bad in asking questions you can't answer yourself. In fact, it is how we learn.
But the OP is not asking for knowledge. It's about keeping an open mind to strong evidence that runs contrary to one's beliefs. The poster is asking whether atheists have such an open mind, but is unwilling to commit to it himself. That is a hypocritical stance imo.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I did have honest intentions, EH

The question is so difficult because I never thought that through yet.
Actually, I never would give up my faith, I think.
If there are the two options:
either give up my faith, or
... start thinking about how to reconcile it with the evidence...
I would never opt for 1.
This is at least what I suppose to be my own reaction.

This is something I do not understand. if the evidence clearly shows your belief is wrong, why hold onto your old belief?

Saying you would *never* opt for giving up your faith seems the path to guaranteeing you will hold firm to a falsehood.

read this:

atheists have little difficulty with that one as compared to theists...? I agree.

I think of this as self-honesty. I know I can make mistakes, even with my most cherished beliefs. So, when the evidence becomes clear, I change my mind.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
You are asking others to be open minded when you yourself choose not to be given a set of hypothetical evidence. That is a completely different thing than the irrelevant examples you provided.
no, I didn't ask others to be open-minded.
I ask them to answer in case they have an answer on this issue.
So, IF they are open-minded on this issue, they are invited to share their mind.
This is the same thing on the "share and care" community. I don't ask others to give me cables if they don't have any.
If they have some to spare, and if they want to give away some for free, I'd be thankful to fetch them, that's how it works there.
And this is not hypocritical, either. So my OP isn't hypocritical, I think.
 
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