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Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Obviously the generation he was talking to. If it had been a future generation he likely would have said, "That generation". make sense?
Matthew 24:25-34
King James Version


25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

If you read all these verses in context, in Matthew 24:34 Jesus was referring to the generation that came AFTER the Son of man returns, which is AFTER the things in Matthew 24:29 happen. Those things happened right before Baha'u'llah appeared.

So it is just as @ loverofhumanity said:

“Clearly, Christ is saying that the ungodly and wicked generations as in Noah, will not pass until the Son of Man has returned and changed the world. Wicked and ungodly generations have continued for well beyond the time Christ uttered those Words.”
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
These Words of the Bible need to be pondered and reflected on if we are to unravel the meanings of many passages.

Matthew 13:16

But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Here eyes are being praised for ‘seeing’ and ears for ‘hearing’ yet most are born able to see and hear. Christ here is clearly referring to insight or perception with our inner eyes and understanding with our inner ears.

Again another term often used in the Bible which confuses many. The term ‘death’. What is meant by it. Is it always physical death? Read this and reflect a little.

Luke 9:60

Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Now this doesn’t make any sense literally and is opposed to science and reason as dead bodies decompose not walk around. So here Christ is clearly referring to a symbolical meaning of death which we can safely say is spiritual death.

Out of interest I found a new translation of this verse that says just that.

New Living Translation

But Jesus told him, “Let the spiritually dead bury their own dead! Your duty is to go and preach about the Kingdom of God.”

When we speak about the second coming we need to take these deeper meanings into account otherwise God passes us by and we are none the wiser.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
See--believing Jesus was more than a mortal man changes a person perspective on how they view the gospels. That's why you can take the gospels seriously. For me they are just fanciful accounts like any Harry Potter novel except they are set in Israel instead of London. Let me remind the readers of some pertinent facts: the gospels are NOT legitimate narratives of the life of Jesus. They are mostly fiction made up by the writers, who had absolutely no references upon which to base their narratives. They had no eyewitnesses;they had no written records that we know of to draw details from. All they had was their imaginations. Mark got the ball rolling with his bare-bones framework, then each subsequent writer began expanding the story and making it more and more fantastic until we get to a fully formed Jesus/god. It's a personal choice based on faith as to whether to believe the details in the gospels are real. One last reminder: we have no secular evidence for Jesus' existence. It's a matter of believing in him based completely on faith, not on evidence.
The historicity of Jesus relates to whether Jesus of Nazareth was a historical figure. Nearly all historians accept that Jesus existed, and standard historical criteria have aided in reconstructing his life.

Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia
But that does not mean that what was recorded in the gospels literally happened. As I think I told you before, I base my belief in Jesus and who He was upon what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha wrote about Jesus. That does not mean I don't think that the gospels contain any sayings of Jesus, but I do not believe they were the exact words of Jesus, as that is logically impossible. Moreover, the stories about Jesus rising from the dead and raising people from the dead are not based upon any historical evidence so there is no reason to believe them.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
The historicity of Jesus relates to whether Jesus of Nazareth was a historical figure. Nearly all historians accept that Jesus existed, and standard historical criteria have aided in reconstructing his life.

Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia
But that does not mean that what was recorded in the gospels literally happened. As I think I told you before, I base my belief in Jesus and who He was upon what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha wrote about Jesus. That does not mean I don't think that the gospels contain any sayings of Jesus, but I do not believe they were the exact words of Jesus, as that is logically impossible. Moreover, the stories about Jesus rising from the dead and raising people from the dead are not based upon any historical evidence so there is no reason to believe them.

I think it's possible, maybe even likely that a Jesus figure upon which the son of God accounts are based lived, but he in my opinion was nothing more than a mortal man who according to many scholars came to a bad end on a cross because he was a rebel dissident of Rome trying to stir up a rebellion. The only people the Romans found worthy of crucifixion were rebels and lawbreakers. The Romans simply did not crucify religious leaders; they didn't think believing in a particular religion was a crime. This whole thing of the Pharisees cutting deals with Judas to betray Jesus into the hands of the Romans is just fanciful hogwash dreamt up by Mark and copied by the others because it made for real drama in an otherwise pretty lackluster account in my opinion---just like a Harry Potter novel. Think of Jesus as another harry Potter. ;)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I think it's possible, maybe even likely that a Jesus figure upon which the son of God accounts are based lived, but he in my opinion was nothing more than a mortal man who according to many scholars came to a bad end on a cross because he was a rebel dissident of Rome trying to stir up a rebellion. The only people the Romans found worthy of crucifixion were rebels and lawbreakers. The Romans simply did not crucify religious leaders; they didn't think believing in a particular religion was a crime. This whole thing of the Pharisees cutting deals with Judas to betray Jesus into the hands of the Romans is just fanciful hogwash dreamt up by Mark and copied by the others because it made for real drama in an otherwise pretty lackluster account in my opinion---just like a Harry Potter novel. Think of Jesus as another harry Potter. ;)
Well, as I told you before, I am deficient in history and Bible history so that makes it difficult for me to have an informed opinion. All I can tell you is what I believe about Jesus as a Baha'i, which is different from what many non-Christian scholars believe yet also different from what Christians believe about Jesus. What Baha'is believe about Jesus is that He was a Manifestation of God and a Messenger of God who had a two-fold nature. We believe that Jesus was not an ordinary man nor was He God, as Christians believe. Rather, God conferred upon Jesus a spiritual nature that ordinary humans do not possess:

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
In my opinion, God is a great father to me.
Jesus COULD do that right now if God wanted him to and that would cause the whole world to give up their 1000 different faiths and turn to Jesus as their Lord and savior if God is honestly and truly is interested in getting the world to believe in His son as man's savior.
yes, he could do that.
And people woulod want to kill him then, I'm afraid.
They killed Jesus so why shouldn't they try to kill him next time he shows up.
Going to a gathering of people wanting to kill/ rape/ beat/ kick you must be an unpleasant experience.
God has a right to withhold appearance, as I see it.

The fact he doesn't utter a peep outside the Bible is proof enough to me he is a deist God who doesn't give two figs who or what we believe in or what we do.
not to the expense of showing up in a hostile environment.
A close relative once went to a country that had a very conservative view on clothing.
She showed up at a beach in beach clothing and everyone stared at her breasts.
The third day it got on her nerves.

This is how God must feel when he would show up and every other person wants to kill him, I think.
Yes he could defend himself, but all the staring (waiting for an "good" opportunity to kill) must get on his nerves. Very much in the way that my relative was offended by all those never ending glances at always the same part of her body.

The extreme suffering, misery, abuse and agonizing deaths of 70% of the world's children tells me He couldn't care less about us because if He did, He would do at least a little something about it like any good father here on earth.
Do you do anything to prevent it?
When a father beats up his own child... why do you blame God?

But He doesn't lift a finger, preferring instead to leave an impossible task up to humans.
It isn't impossible though.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
What's holding Jesus up, did He get hung up on the clouds on the way down? o_O
Sorry, I could not help myself, the entire belief is so utterly silly. :D
It just goes to show what indoctrination can do to people, take away their capacity to think.
I don't think it's silly.
No indoctrination here.
I don't think that Jesus got hung up on the clouds.
He just waits with returning in person. That's all.

I also believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead and that it is not a lie to claim that he did so.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I don't think it's silly.
No indoctrination here.
I don't think that Jesus got hung up on the clouds.
He just waits with returning in person. That's all.

I also believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead and that it is not a lie to claim that he did so.
Sorry if that sounded offensive, everyone has a right to their beliefs.
Perhaps my beliefs about all the worlds of God we will go to when we die sound silly to some people. :D

I can understand why Christians believe in the bodily resurrection because it is written in the New Testament, but I do not understand why Christians believe that Jesus is going to return to earth because Jesus never promised to do that, not once in the New Testament.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
Sorry if that sounded offensive, everyone has a right to their beliefs.
Perhaps my beliefs about all the worlds of God we will go to when we die sound silly to some people. :D

I can understand why Christians believe in the bodily resurrection because it is written in the New Testament, but I do not understand why Christians believe that Jesus is going to return to earth because Jesus never promised to do that, not once in the New Testament.
Thank you, Trailblazer.
Jesus's Second Coming comes across as a fact in the Bible, see 1 Corinthians 15:23.
Paul would not talk like that if Jesus's second coming never would take place.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Thank you, Trailblazer.
Jesus's Second Coming comes across as a fact in the Bible, see 1 Corinthians 15:23.
Paul would not talk like that if Jesus's second coming never would take place.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

What do you think Paul meant, within the context of the other verses in that chapter?
Why do you think that verse refers to the "second" coming?
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

What do you think Paul meant, within the context of the other verses in that chapter?
Why do you think that verse refers to the "second" coming?
well it says "coming". Coming means coming when someone comes simply.
I don't find any reason to think that coming has a different meaning in this particular chapter.
So, coming is still coming
and since Jesus did not show up in person yet, I call it "second".
That was easy?
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
I am not trying to be a 'credible witness' for themes in the Christian scriptures, I am just interpreting the Bible verses, and I can interpret them as well as any Christian, actually better. Since Baha'u'llah unsealed the Book and explained what it means as per Daniel 12, Baha'is are able to know what the Bible means better than any Christian.

Baha'u'llah did not appropriate any narratives about Jesus to justify himself. Baha'u'llah did not need to justify Himself since He was sent by God. You only make yourself look ignorant when you speak about something you know nothing about.

Who said I have an obsession? I have posted mostly to atheists during these years, not to Christians. I have not been trying to 'dissuade' any Christians away from their beliefs. I just post accurate information from the Bible, what Christians do with that is their own business because we all have free will.

There is one reason and only one reason that Christians reject Baha'u'llah, it is because they are waiting for the same man Jesus to return and they believe He will return. It has nothing to do with who Baha'u'llah was as a person or what He actually did on His mission or how many prophecies were fulfilled by His Coming... NONE of that matters to Christians because Baha'u'llah is not the same man Jesus. Christians would not want to know the Truth even if Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ because all they want is Jesus. Seven years has been more than long enough for me to figure that out. Christian belief is all emotional, not based on facts or evidence. It is all about an emotional attachment to Jesus.

The problem Christians have to contend with is that Jesus never promised to return to Earth, not even once in the entire New Testament. Jesus said He would send the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth, which was Baha'u'llah, who did everything that Jesus promised. Moreover, the Bible says that Christ would return with a new name and that is why Jesus warned us not to follow anyone who claimed to be Christ.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

There is enough evidence in the Bible to prove that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ to sink a ship so I do not even need to go into the evidence that Baha'u'llah told us to look at as I posted on the thread below. There is no way Christians can win this one because evidence is evidence.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah
As a disciple of Jesus I believe Baha'u'llah ins’t Christ, that’s why we don’t respond to the voice of another.

The Son will return in power and authority as he was when he left, Creator and rightful ruler of this world.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I dispute your statistic, Ken.

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

>>>And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested. <<<

Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer (Published 2006)

I don't agree....

What type of prayer did they use in that study?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
And studies have shown that intercessory prayer can have negative effects. One has to be careful when citing studies. The results are meaningless if we do not know the context. Prayer may help people to reasonable solve problems or even to change behavior but that appears to have more to do with how they are thinking than thinking itself More modern studies that try to do proper double or even triple blind studies do not find that prayer is effective for others:

Does Prayer Work?

that information doesn't have enough information to qualify the veracity of its study.

1) What type of people were doing the praying
2) What type of prayer was being used
3) What was the theological position they were using when they were praying.

Since studies have to be very specific, these are very important questions.

It would be like taking a large polling sample of thousands and then finding out the sample was mainly non-voters and heavily one sided in a particular party. important factors that give skewed responses... especially in the light that there are other contradictory studies (as noted)
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I don't agree....

What type of prayer did they use in that study?
You made the error of cherry picking a study that you liked. I looked more at metastudies, or studies about studies. When one looks at quite a few studies the answer is that prayer does not help.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
You made the error of cherry picking a study that you liked. I looked more at metastudies, or studies about studies. When one looks at quite a few studies the answer is that prayer does not help.
I would have to disagree....

Again, with as many people in our church where doctors are amazed - even this last month where doctor looked at the x-rays - going to put in a stint in the arteries - went in and then said "I know I saw the blockage but it isn't there"...

You just can't argue with results.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I would have to disagree....

Again, with as many people in our church where doctors are amazed - even this last month where doctor looked at the x-rays - going to put in a stint in the arteries - went in and then said "I know I saw the blockage but it isn't there"...

You just can't argue with results.
That is because at best you do not understand how studies are done. You are relying on anecdotes now. Those are totally unreliable. Amateurs quite often get the initial facts wrong, get the secondary facts wrong, or just flat out lie. And you have no idea if they did any of those.

In other words unconfirmed nonsense is not evidence.
 
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