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Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
No, very objective. And the medical profession is honest when they say that a person's reactions may vary. They are subjective responses. But guess what? Science can often be applied to those responses because they fall within a statistical range. So one can give a person their odds of recovery. They can also give the odds of recovery without treatment (for most cancers those odds are very close to zero). Again, this illustrates that you do not understand what objective and subjective are.


Harold G. Koenig, M.D.
Director, Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health
Professor of Psychiatry & Behavioral Sciences
Associate Professor of Medicine
Duke University Medical Center
Adjunct Professor, Department of Psychiatry, School of Osteopathic Medicine, Campbell University, Buies Creek, North Carolina




Screen Shot 2021-02-19 at 4.25.48 PM.png


Study - Prayer Works

A 1995 study at the Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center, examined how patients' own prayers affected their recovery from open-heart surgery.

This study found that patients who said they drew comfort and strength from religious faith, which presumably included prayer, were three times more likely to survive in the six months following surgery as “nonreligious” patients.


The power of prayer: Science proves it works, has positive physiological effects

Screen Shot 2021-02-19 at 4.24.21 PM.png



There was no attack. There was an observation that you do not understand what objective and subjective are. You keep making rather basic errors. Asking a question is not an attack in this case. Identifying an error or a poor reasoning pattern is not an attack. Those that are in the wrong quite often make the mistake of thinking that corrections are attacks because if they followed through they would have to greatly change how they approached problems.

Faith is not objective because there is no real statistics supporting it. To often believers simply claim "you did not try hard enough" to people that could not find faith. Or where faith did not work for them. With that sort of attitude one cannot make a proper analysis to see if there is even any real value in faith.

"Faith is the very embodiment of subjective."

Statement.... no proof.

"Your logic just disappeared so please do not abuse logical fallacies. It is not a false equivalence to point out that endlessly varying religions are due to the fact that faith is extremely subjective."

Statement.... no proof.

"If faith was reliable there would not be an endlessly different religions." - false equivalency

Still stands. If English language were a reliable form of communication, there would not be an endless different languages. (Using your standard of absurdity)
 

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Colt

Well-Known Member
I don't think you're hear my question, cOLTER. I asked:

would millions upon millions of Christians be spending millions of their hard-earned $$$$'s buying hundreds of millions of books about a literal VISIBLE bodily return of Jesus riding a white horse to the earth with billions of his saints behind him at the height of the Armageddon battle IF they believed he already returned spirituality 2000 years ago?
Yes, his spirit has been here with us ever since. People ponder about the return of his person. You have created a conflict for Christians that we don't have. Its you who has the problem understanding the "spirit of truth" and the return of the person of Christ
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
God could do that if the gospel message that He wanted everyone to believe, but that is not what God wants us to follow in this new age. God wants everyone to follow Baha'u'llah, and the Baha'is have made darned sure that the message is available to everyone in the world and can be accessed in a split second. It is called the internet. :);)

Baha’i Reference Library online older version
Baha’i Reference Library online new version

But again, Trailblazer I don't get God's inept methodology for getting the gospel out to the world 2000 years ago. If Jesus were really risen from the dead, logically he would have appeared to everybody on the planet and said, "Believe in me" instead of just telling 12 dumb as posts ignorant fisherman go to out to 300 million people and spread the gospel. It's a ridiculously bad idea. God is supposed to be wise. All I see there is total incompetence on God's part. Either that, or Jesus never existed, neither did the apostles and it was rumors and legends that circulated over decades that finally got Christianity off to a rocky start.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
God doesn't lift a finger to move any of this along. He sits idly by as millions of His children renounce their faith and walk away from Him. Is this truly what God wants? If not why in the hell doesn't He do something to stop it?????
Millions of people are not renouncing faith in God just because millions of people are renouncing their faith in Christianity. ;)

God does not do anything to stop people from renouncing their faith in Christianity because God is sitting idly by hoping that eventually everyone will renounce their faith in Christianity, because unless they do, there can never be one common faith, as God has ordained.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91


But we know that eventually there will be one common faith because what God ordains always comes to pass.
So we know that eventually Christianity will be a relic of the past because Christians will never unite with any other religion. :)
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Yes, his spirit has been here with us ever since. People ponder about the return of his person. You have created a conflict for Christians that we don't have. Its you who has the problem understanding the "spirit of truth" and the return of the person of Christ


Look, all I know is that a large percentage of Christians in America believe in a literal bodily VISIBLE return of Jesus to the earth sometime in the future. They don't buy that he returned 2000 years ago. I mean I can quote the statistic to you again if you want, I doubt it's going to do any good but here goes:

Fully 58% of white evangelical Christians say Christ will return to earth by 2050. 41% of Americans believe that Jesus Christ definitely (23%) or probably (18%) will have returned to earth by 2050.

Jesus Christ’s Return to Earth

There's the poll results, cOLTER. I don't know why you keep insisting it is I who has the problem when the statistics line up with what I am saying.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
However Jesus returns, he will make himself visible as he did after he resurrected.
If Jesus made Himself visible, then people would see Him.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Dream on. You cannot fix this without rewriting the Bible.
And while you are rewriting the Bible you will have to add verses where Jesus says He is returning to this world, because there is not ONE single verse in the entire Bible that says that.
Simple, In John 17:11 The Son of God is preparing to leave, he is praying for his apostles. "I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you."

You see conflict where there is none.
That might work as an interpretation but you cannot do anything with John 14:19
Were you Christian before becoming a follower of Baha'i?
No, I wasn't. I did not even believe in God.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Harold G. Koenig, M.D.
Director, Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health
Professor of Psychiatry & Behavioral Sciences
Associate Professor of Medicine
Duke University Medical Center
Adjunct Professor, Department of Psychiatry, School of Osteopathic Medicine, Campbell University, Buies Creek, North Carolina




View attachment 47905

Study - Prayer Works

A 1995 study at the Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center, examined how patients' own prayers affected their recovery from open-heart surgery.

This study found that patients who said they drew comfort and strength from religious faith, which presumably included prayer, were three times more likely to survive in the six months following surgery as “nonreligious” patients.


The power of prayer: Science proves it works, has positive physiological effects

View attachment 47906




"Faith is the very embodiment of subjective."

Statement.... no proof.

"Your logic just disappeared so please do not abuse logical fallacies. It is not a false equivalence to point out that endlessly varying religions are due to the fact that faith is extremely subjective."

Statement.... no proof.

"If faith was reliable there would not be an endlessly different religions." - false equivalency

Still stands. If English language were a reliable form of communication, there would not be an endless different languages. (Using your standard of absurdity)

I dispute your statistic, Ken.

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

>>>And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested. <<<

Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer (Published 2006)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Harold G. Koenig, M.D.
Director, Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health
Professor of Psychiatry & Behavioral Sciences
Associate Professor of Medicine
Duke University Medical Center
Adjunct Professor, Department of Psychiatry, School of Osteopathic Medicine, Campbell University, Buies Creek, North Carolina




View attachment 47905

Study - Prayer Works

A 1995 study at the Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center, examined how patients' own prayers affected their recovery from open-heart surgery.

This study found that patients who said they drew comfort and strength from religious faith, which presumably included prayer, were three times more likely to survive in the six months following surgery as “nonreligious” patients.


The power of prayer: Science proves it works, has positive physiological effects

View attachment 47906




"Faith is the very embodiment of subjective."

Statement.... no proof.

"Your logic just disappeared so please do not abuse logical fallacies. It is not a false equivalence to point out that endlessly varying religions are due to the fact that faith is extremely subjective."

Statement.... no proof.

"If faith was reliable there would not be an endlessly different religions." - false equivalency

Still stands. If English language were a reliable form of communication, there would not be an endless different languages. (Using your standard of absurdity)
And studies have shown that intercessory prayer can have negative effects. One has to be careful when citing studies. The results are meaningless if we do not know the context. Prayer may help people to reasonable solve problems or even to change behavior but that appears to have more to do with how they are thinking than thinking itself More modern studies that try to do proper double or even triple blind studies do not find that prayer is effective for others:

Does Prayer Work?

In sum, no empirical, scientifically rigorous evidence has ever been brought forth proving the power of prayer. And just think about it: if praying produced the prayed-for outcomes, no prayed-for mothers would ever die of breast cancer, no prayed-for teenagers would ever die on the operating table, no prayed-for dogs or cats would ever fail to return home, and tens of millions of praying people would never die from starvation resulting from a lack of rain. Three hundred million people have died from smallpox in the 20th century alone — clearly, all of their prayers, and their parents’ prayers, and their children’s prayers, and their spouses’ prayers, did not have the desired healing effect.

It is very easy to screw up a study, such as a study on prayer where personal intent makes a difference. As far as evidence goes prayer just does not cut it. People claim that it works, but that does not appear to be the case.

One more source, for intercessory prayer when one looks at numerous studies there is no benefit. Some cases showed a benefit, some did not. some showed worse results. One cannot cherry pick just the supporting studies in cases like this:

Various controlled studies have addressed the topic of the efficacy of prayer at least since Francis Galton in 1872.[13] Carefully monitored studies of prayer are relatively scarce with $5 million spent worldwide on such research each year.[8] The largest study, from the 2006 STEP project, found no significant differences in patients recovering from heart surgery whether the patients were prayed for or not.[14][7]

The third party studies reported either null results, correlated results, or contradictory results in which beneficiaries of prayer had worsened health outcomes. For instance, a meta-analysis of several studies related to distant intercessory healing published in the Annals of Internal Medicine in 2000 looked at 2774 patients in 23 studies, and found that 13 studies showed statistically significant positive results, 9 studies showed no effect, and 1 study showed a negative result.[15]

A 2003 levels of evidence review found evidence for the hypothesis that "Being prayed for improves physical recovery from acute illness".[16] It concluded that although "a number of studies" have tested this hypothesis, "only three have sufficient rigor for review here" (Byrd 1988, Harris et al. 1999, and Sicher et al. 1998). In all three, "the strongest findings were for the variables that were evaluated most subjectively", raising concerns about the possible inadvertent unmasking of the outcomes' assessors. Other meta-studies of the broader literature have been performed showing evidence only for no effect or a potentially small effect. For instance, a 2006 meta analysis on 14 studies concluded that there is "no discernible effect" while a 2007 systemic review of intercessory prayer reported inconclusive results, noting that 7 of 17 studies had "small, but significant, effect sizes" but the review noted that the three most methodologically rigorous studies failed to produce significant findings.[17][18]

Efficacy of prayer - Wikipedia

Of course you can find a study or two that support prayers. In fact it is very easy to find studies that did not follow proper protocols that seem to strongly support prayer. But the better the study is the less effective prayer is. That should tell you something.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I dispute your statistic, Ken.

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

>>>And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested. <<<

Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer (Published 2006)
I was thinking about that study. I went more for meta-studies that show when considered as a group there is no benefit. But thank you for that. It appears to be just as valid as the study that @KenS linked. Personal knowledge that people are praying for you appears to have more effect than no knowledge of people praying for you, and it can be positive or negative.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But again, Trailblazer I don't get God's inept methodology for getting the gospel out to the world 2000 years ago. If Jesus were really risen from the dead, logically he would have appeared to everybody on the planet and said, "Believe in me" instead of just telling 12 dumb as posts ignorant fisherman go to out to 300 million people and spread the gospel. It's a ridiculously bad idea. God is supposed to be wise. All I see there is total incompetence on God's part. Either that, or Jesus never existed, neither did the apostles and it was rumors and legends that circulated over decades that finally got Christianity off to a rocky start.
That's easy peasy. :D
Jesus never rose from the dead, so those were just stories that men wrote about Jesus. People believed them because people did not know any better back in those days and people still believe them because they were passed down through the generations. But as you well know, in this modern age people are starting to question these stories as well as other beliefs of Christianity, and that is why people are dropping out in droves.

God is All-Knowing so God knew all this would happen from beginning to end, and it was all part pf God's Plan leading up to the Revelation of Baha'u'llah and the new age in which we are now living. Why God allows people to hold false beliefs as well as true ones is because we all have free will.

No, it is not that God is incompetent or Jesus never existed. Jesus did indeed exist, but Jesus never rose from the dead. That is the biggest lie that was ever perpetrated upon humanity and it has done more damage than any other single belief because that one belief led to many other false beliefs that are holding back the progress of humanity. Please understand that this lie was perpetrated by men who had an agenda, not by God. :(
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Fully 58% of white evangelical Christians say Christ will return to earth by 2050. 41% of Americans believe that Jesus Christ definitely (23%) or probably (18%) will have returned to earth by 2050.

Jesus Christ’s Return to Earth
What's holding Jesus up, did He get hung up on the clouds on the way down? o_O
Sorry, I could not help myself, the entire belief is so utterly silly. :D
It just goes to show what indoctrination can do to people, take away their capacity to think.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Look, all I know is that a large percentage of Christians in America believe in a literal bodily VISIBLE return of Jesus to the earth sometime in the future. They don't buy that he returned 2000 years ago. I mean I can quote the statistic to you again if you want, I doubt it's going to do any good but here goes:

Fully 58% of white evangelical Christians say Christ will return to earth by 2050. 41% of Americans believe that Jesus Christ definitely (23%) or probably (18%) will have returned to earth by 2050.

Jesus Christ’s Return to Earth

There's the poll results, cOLTER. I don't know why you keep insisting it is I who has the problem when the statistics line up with what I am saying.
Because Christians know that the “spirit of truth” came at Pentecost which you deny. They know that is “spirit”. They know the Son of God said he will return in person in the future.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Because Christians know that the “spirit of truth” came at Pentecost which you deny. They know that is “spirit”. They know the Son of God said he will return in person in the future.
I think you give Christians too much credit, frankly when statistically they rarely open their Bible let alone read it. let's just agree to disagree.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
What's holding Jesus up, did He get hung up on the clouds on the way down? o_O
Sorry, I could not help myself, the entire belief is so utterly silly. :D
It just goes to show what indoctrination can do to people, take away their capacity to think.
I think he took a wrong turn at the Milky Way galaxy. They're halfway to Andromeda by now.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Jesus did indeed exist, but Jesus never rose from the dead. That is the biggest lie that was ever perpetrated upon humanity and it has done more damage than any other single belief because that one belief led to many other false beliefs that are holding back the progress of humanity. Please understand that this lie was perpetrated by men who had an agenda, not by God. :(

That part is not hard at all to agree with. Man botches everything he touches, sadly.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
If Jesus made Himself visible, then people would see Him.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Dream on. You cannot fix this without rewriting the Bible.
And while you are rewriting the Bible you will have to add verses where Jesus says He is returning to this world, because there is not ONE single verse in the entire Bible that says that.

That might work as an interpretation but you cannot do anything with John 14:19

No, I wasn't. I did not even believe in God.
Jesus left after visiting with some of his believers. He will come back as he said he would.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Because Christians know that the “spirit of truth” came at Pentecost which you deny. They know that is “spirit”. They know the Son of God said he will return in person in the future.
I have only met Christians that believe that. They might claim to "know" but they can never justify their belief. Knowledge is demonstrable. If one knows something he can support those claims rationally.

Now belief has merit. but it is an error to claim that one knows something when one does not.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
I was thinking about that study. I went more for meta-studies that show when considered as a group there is no benefit. But thank you for that. It appears to be just as valid as the study that @KenS linked. Personal knowledge that people are praying for you appears to have more effect than no knowledge of people praying for you, and it can be positive or negative.
Yes, one Christian can think, "Wow! Someone is praying for me to heal. I'm going to recover" And he hops out of bed the next day, believing that it was prayer being answered when the truth is he just has remarkable recuperative powers. The Christian next to him has the same group pray for him too and he has a massive coronary and dies. What's lacking in these studies is any uniformity in results. Some will recover, but most won't so we have to forget about prayer having any objective value and look for subjective reasons for why one dies while another seems to have a prayer answered.
 
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