How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[Skywalker]

The Suffering Servant is Israel personified, thus having no direct connection to Jesus.

Again, serious theologians know this, but Pastor Joe may not.

Reminds me of something Billy Graham once wrote, namely that the Christian message is simple enough that even one dull-of-mind can understand but complicated enough to turn theologians' hair grey.

The suffering servant is not Israel personified because while Israel is described as a servant, there are verses that describe the servant as distinct from Israel. Who Is The Suffering Servant? Israel Or Jesus?

The servant in prior chapters is distinct from Israel. There are several discourses about the servant in the later chapters of Isaiah, the NASB titling the chapters ‘God Helps His Servant’ (chapter 50), ‘The Exalted Servant’ (chapter 52:13-15) and finally ‘The Suffering Servant,’ (chapter 53). One can hardly blame the rational man for thinking that these are all the same figure. Beginning in Isaiah 49:5, the servant is talking, and he says “The Lord, who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him, so that Israel might be gathered to him.” This servant seems to be one who is distinct from the nation of Israel.

 

[metis]

The suffering servant is not Israel personified because while Israel is described as a servant, there are verses that describe the servant as distinct from Israel. Who Is The Suffering Servant? Israel Or Jesus?

Maybe check this out: Who is God's Suffering Servant? The Rabbinic Interpretation of Isaiah 53 | Outreach Judaism

As a Christian, which I also am, one should be willing to admit that your interpretation is clearly not correct for a variety of reasons, but even with this being the case Jesus still can be believed in as a Messiah. Therefore, in no way does this diminish Jesus, what he was and still is, nor lessen the importance of what he taught.

Isaiah clearly is about the Babylonian exile and the return to Israel, and we know this because of names and places, some that changed names over the centuries, plus how the Law [the 613 Commandments] are integral to the text, which rather clearly does not and cannot apply to Christianity. Probably most Catholic and mainline Protestant theologians know this because of their rather intense training in both Jewish and Christian theology, but I have found many fundamentalist Protestant theologians not being as well theologically astute, and this includes the church I grew up in btw, or they feel they have to spout the "company line" or possibly lose their jobs. Tolerance of opinions is not a fundamentalist virtue, let me tell ya.

Anyhow, ...

 

[Skywalker]

Maybe check this out: Who is God's Suffering Servant? The Rabbinic Interpretation of Isaiah 53 | Outreach Judaism

As a Christian, which I also am, one should be willing to admit that your interpretation is clearly not correct for a variety of reasons, but even with this being the case Jesus still can be believed in as a Messiah. Therefore, in no way does this diminish Jesus, what he was and still is, nor lessen the importance of what he taught.

Isaiah clearly is about the Babylonian exile and the return to Israel, and we know this because of names and places, some that changed names over the centuries, plus how the Law [the 613 Commandments] are integral to the text, which rather clearly does not and cannot apply to Christianity. Probably most Catholic and mainline Protestant theologians know this because of their rather intense training in both Jewish and Christian theology, but I have found many fundamentalist Protestant theologians not being as well theologically astute, and this includes the church I grew up in btw, or they feel they have to spout the "company line" or possibly lose their jobs. Tolerance of opinions is not a fundamentalist virtue, let me tell ya.

Anyhow, ...

How is Israel itself a light to the nations? Who Is The Suffering Servant? Israel Or Jesus?

He goes on to say, (v. 6) “I will also make you a light of the nations…” (v. 8) “I will keep you and give you a covenant of the people…” I do not want to be guilty of reading into the text, but it seems to me that Messiah of the Jews is a light to the nations. Billions of Gentiles have turned to the God of Israel and worshipped him. Has this not been fulfilled? Who is the suffering servant? Israel or Jesus? This text can only be referring to the Messiah, and was plainly fulfilled in the conversion of billions of Gentiles across the world.

 

[Skywalker]

The Torah has many laws. If I don't own a car, I can follow American law even though I'm not buckling my seatbelt. I can keep the Torah by following the laws that apply to me based on who and where (and when) I am. And we continue reading and pay close attention to Deut 18:20-22.

Jesus was the prophet like unto Moses, because even though Jesus is first and foremost God and not a prophet, Jesus also has the threefold office of prophet, priest, and king. WHO IS THE PROPHET OF DEUTERONOMY 18:18 ?

Some Muslims object to Muhammad being ruled out as the prophet, and assert the following:


"Jesus never claimed to be the prophet Moses foretold".


Jesus never said directly "I am the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18". But He said that He was a prophet, and probably meant that He was that prophet. Other parts of the N.T. declare Him to be that prophet. Let's start with Christ's implications then go on:


1)-Luke 7:39 - the Pharisee said to himself, 'if this man were a prophet...Jesus knew his thoughts and addressed them, proving to the Pharisee that he was a prophet.


2)-John 5:46 - Jesus said "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he (Moses) wrote about me." Moses did write about Jesus; Jesus is the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18. Jesus claimed to be the prophet Moses foretold.

 

[metis]

How is Israel itself a light to the nations?

It was the first to have a permanent belief in the belief in One God. It was the first country to create a compassionate system whereas all people in need living there would be helped-- not just some. It is the parent of both Christianity and Islam.

 

[Skywalker]

It was the first to have a permanent belief in the belief in One God. It was the first country to create a compassionate system whereas all people in need living there would be helped-- not just some. It is the parent of both Christianity and Islam.

Israel became a light to the nations through Jesus being sent.

 

[metis]

Israel became a light to the nations through Jesus being sent.

They already are:
Psalms137[5-6] If I forget you, O Jerusalem,
let my right hand wither!
[6] Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth,
if I do not remember you,
if I do not set Jerusalem
above my highest joy!

And "replacement theology" not only defies what's repeatedly stated in the Tanakh, it also has been the main source of so much persecution of the Jews over the centuries.

 

[Skywalker]

They already are:
Psalms137[5-6] If I forget you, O Jerusalem,
let my right hand wither!
[6] Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth,
if I do not remember you,
if I do not set Jerusalem
above my highest joy!

And "replacement theology" not only defies what's repeatedly stated in the Tanakh, it also has been the main source of so much persecution of the Jews over the centuries.

The Jews having their own separate covenant with God is not mentioned in the Bible.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

The Torah has many laws. If I don't own a car, I can follow American law even though I'm not buckling my seatbelt. I can keep the Torah by following the laws that apply to me based on who and where (and when) I am. And we continue reading and pay close attention to Deut 18:20-22.

Since you paid close attention to Deuteronomy 18:20-22 - tell me what he prophesied that has proven to be false?

 

[rosends]

Since you paid close attention to Deuteronomy 18:20-22 - tell me what he prophesied that has proven to be false?

You actually have a few problems here.

First, I could go all crazy posting links to discussions of false predictions, like this site, and this one. I could also point out that verse 20 requires that God commands the person to utter statements and this fails on 2 accounts, one that Judaism rejects the notion that God spoke to Jesus, and second, since Jesus made pronouncements that go against what God has already commanded, and God is not changeable, those statements could NOT have come from God.

But it is easiest just to point out that Jesus wasn't a prophet at all because according to the Pharisees (whose ideas Jesus cribbed, and whose authority, at least in terms of teaching, he endorsed) taught that the era of prophecy had ended some 300 years prior, making any claim to his being a prophet, on its face, false.

Hope that helps.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

You actually have a few problems here.

First, I could go all crazy posting links to discussions of false predictions, like this site, and this one. I could also point out that verse 20 requires that God commands the person to utter statements and this fails on 2 accounts, one that Judaism rejects the notion that God spoke to Jesus, and second, since Jesus made pronouncements that go against what God has already commanded, and God is not changeable, those statements could NOT have come from God.

But it is easiest just to point out that Jesus wasn't a prophet at all because according to the Pharisees (whose ideas Jesus cribbed, and whose authority, at least in terms of teaching, he endorsed) taught that the era of prophecy had ended some 300 years prior, making any claim to his being a prophet, on its face, false.

Hope that helps.

NO proof of anything he said that was wrong!

He prophesied of the destruction of Jerusalem. Fulfilled around 70 AD

 

[dybmh]

Maybe it's not the best example, but, has anyone been able to curse a fig tree as described in the Christian bible?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Maybe it's not the best example, but, has anyone been able to curse a fig tree as described in the Christian bible?

It's not an example at all of a prophecy that wasn't fulfilled. At best it is just you saying you don't believe it.

That would be like me asking if anyone has ever seen an axe head float as mentioned in the old testament.

 

[dybmh]

It's not an example at all of a prophecy that wasn't fulfilled. At best it is just you saying you don't believe it.

That would be like me asking if anyone has ever seen an axe head float to disprove something from the old testament.

I know, but, it is an example of something Jesus is quoted as saying which seems to be false.

It can't be compared to stories in the old testament, because, those stories don't claim that ordinary people can subvert the laws of nature.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I know, but, it is an example of something Jesus is quoted as saying which seems to be false.

It can't be compared to stories in the old testament, because, those stories don't claim that ordinary people can subvert the laws of nature.

Really - Read 2 Kings 6:5-7 - Isn't it against the laws of nature for an axe head to float?

 

[dybmh]

Really - Read 2 Kings 6:5-7 - Isn't it against the laws of nature for an axe head to float?

I don't think those are comparable, tbh.

In Kings, it describes a singular one time event. In Matthew it describes an event which can be repeated.

It's an example of something that Jesus is quoted as saying, which seems false. It undermines the rest of the story.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Maybe it's not the best example, but, has anyone been able to curse a fig tree as described in the Christian bible?

"I think they are a pain, sometimes. Usually they are just fine, but sometimes they get in the way. Also the sap can cause your skin to have a reaction. Don't touch the sap."

But that is perhaps not what you are asking.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I don't think those are comparable, tbh.

In Kings, it describes a singular one time event. In Matthew it describes an event which can be repeated.

It's an example of something that Jesus is quoted as saying, which seems false. It undermines the rest of the story.

Bogus - just admit the axe head thing was against the laws of nature. He only did it once in Matthew also. So what does that prove?

Anyway you haven't come up with anything you can prove false.

 

[dybmh]

Bogus - just admit the axe head thing was against the laws of nature. He only did it once in Matthew also. So what does that prove?

The two stories are not comaprable inless the verses in Kings say that anyone can perform the miracle.

Anyway you haven't come up with anything you can prove false.

Can we agree that Jesus added to the law?

John 6:52-59

What's prescribed here is not anywhere in the old testament. It's new law.

 

[Batya]

Can we agree that Jesus added to the law?

John 6:52-59

What's prescribed here is not anywhere in the old testament. It's new law.

How was it in the tanach that people attained to eternal life (not sure how much of a concept that is in Judaism) or at least being right with God? Sacrifices were part of that, and I believe Yeshua was foreshadowed in the pesach lamb. And also, I wonder, how do you think mankind well be reconciled to God and return to a pre-fallen state, as in the garden of Eden?