Two Things That Confuse Me About Christianity

[Trailblazer]

That's your choice to believe as you want. Galatians 1:8-9

The Bible says:
Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

But then the New Testament was an addition to the Old Testament, wasn't it?
So Jesus came with a new Revelation from God and added to what Moses revealed.

That is no different from Baha'u'llah coming with a new Revelation from God and adding to what Moses and Jesus had revealed.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Only two? No, actually more but I will deal with just two of them here.
1. Why are there 3 forms of eternal destination specifically stated in the Bible? They are 1. eternal damnation 2. eternal annihilation 3. universal salvation.
For No 1: 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...Then they will go away to eternal punishment"
For No 2: For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him, will not perish; Do not fear those who can kill the body, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna
For No 3: For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people; the living God, who is the Savior of all people
2. Why are there 7 forms of atonement?

No 7 forms needed because of the Resurrection Hope .

I find there is 'forever destruction' for the wicked - Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22
I find there is eternal life offered to 'both' the righteous and unrighteous - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
People like those of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18 are offered Heaven.
The majority of people to live on Earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall - John 3:13

The ' eternal fire ' is symbolic of: Destruction.
In Revelation ' second death ' is where sinner Satan ends up - Revelation 21:8
Jesus will destroy Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B
So, just as fire destroys things, wicked sinner Satan will be: destroyed forever.

Jesus died for ALL but please notice the word " if " at 1 John 1:7.
So, it is Savior of all people who want Jesus as Sovereign over them.
This is why Matthew 20:28 says that Jesus' ransom covers MANY and does Not say all.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The Bible says:
Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
But then the New Testament was an addition to the Old Testament, wasn't it?
So Jesus came with a new Revelation from God and added to what Moses revealed.
That is no different from Baha'u'llah coming with a new Revelation from God and adding to what Moses and Jesus had revealed.

I find the ' word ' Moses was speaking about was directed to only one nation, the nation of ancient Israel.
That ' word ' was the temporary Constitution of the Mosaic Law contract only for the one nation of ancient Israel.
Jesus as Messiah fulfilled that Law, so the Christian Scriptures are a fulfillment of the old Hebrew Scriptures.
- Romans 10:4; Revelation 22:18-19

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you said it, I was saying that the Bible says it. As for mediating, see this is where deists part ways with religions. Deists like myself believe God doesn't communicate with anyone in any form. He's totally divorced from any interactions with man. That's why evil pain and suffering are so rampant in this world.

So are you saying that if God interact with this world, there would not he all the evil pain and suffering are so rampant in this world? I believe that despite God sending Messengers telling us how we should live, some people chose to ignore those messages and not follow them so that is why there is evil in the world, since evil is caused by man and the choices he makes and acts he commits, given man has free will to do either good or evil. There is other suffering in the world that is not caused by man’s choices and actions, and we are simply forced to endure this kind of suffering because we have no choice. Man is forced to endure them because thye are our fate.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248.

For my money God wouldn't even stop an asteroid from obliterating the earth. We've seen 6 major extinction events in the earth's history. A few of them would have wiped out all civilization today and maybe one day it will. As it was, only a small percentage of life survived each one and went on to repopulate species over millions of years. Homo sapiens have only been around for anywhere from 100,000 to 200,000 years and our earliest ancestors date back to about 1 million years so they've never been a part of the last extinction event which was the Cretaceous-Paleogene extinction - 66 million years ago. With overpopulation and climate change our turn is coming real soon.

Well, thanks for all that information. I do not have much time to study these days but I learn a lot from reading what people post on the forum.

It is interesting you mention extinction because Baha’u’llah wrote that God could afford to dispense with all His creatures if He wanted to. God has no needs since God is totally self-sufficient and self-subsisting so God does not need humans for anything. The only reason God reveals anything through Messengers is for human benefit, and it does not affect God if we choose to reject His Messengers, it only affects us.

So if God had wanted us to go extinct He has had plenty of time to make that happen. I believe that could have been our fate if God had not sent Baha’u’llah. I believe that everything that we see now that is heading in a positive direction is the result of His Revelation, even though most people are not even aware of it let alone believing in it. I believe that a new world order is slowing rising and eventually it will replace the old world order. This is what is referred to as the Kingdom of God on earth in the Bible.

Jesus asked for us to pray for the Kingdom to come, Jesus never said he was coming to build it, as Christians believe. That belief is based upon a misunderstanding of the Bible. Christians take certain verses and interpret them to mean what they want them to mean, because they so want Jesus to return, but that is not even what the verses say at all. Thus Christians have completely misconstrued the meaning of the Bible, which is actually very accurate regarding what will happen in the ends times.

Christians believe that Jesus is going to return and wave His magic wand and fix everything that is wrong in this world, all the things that humans have messed up over the centuries and that Jesus will build the Kingdom of God on earth. By contrast, Baha’is believe that humans will build the Kingdom of God on earth by following the blueprint instructions Baha’u’llah laid out.

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

You know, Trail, far as showing you verses I can google "Bible verses that support universal salvation". These beliefs come in waves. At one time it was eternal torment that was the dominant view. Now with political correctness and all, church pastors are gravitating away from this view and embracing universal salvation because nobody in today's climate wants to hear they are going to burn forever if they say, "Jesus Christ" in a fit of anger. That's why church attendance in America and Europe is plummeting as more and more people drift to NONES, spiritual people who don't believe in organized religions. This is squeezing the pockets of churches and they are closing shop at unprecedented numbers as their collection baskets dry up. Who knows, 500 years from now after a big cataclysmic event maybe annihilation will take center stage. This stuff is all controlled by political forces, not God. This is all IMHO.

I do agree that what happens to Christianity is controlled by political forces and other actions of men, not by God. If God had His way, Christianity would be no more. This is all IMHO. I believe that Christianity will eventually be phased out but this won’t happen overnight because humans move slowly and God does not interfere in human free will decisions.

Maybe you do not know this, but Islam is now the fastest growing religion in the world and by the year 2060 it will overtake Christianity. The Baha’i Faith is right behind Islam as the second fastest growing religion in the world.

The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

From 2000-2010 Islam became the fastest growing religion (1.86 %) and the Baha’i Faith was the second fastest growing religion (1.72%). Christianity is trailing behind at 1.31%.

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

The growth rates of the Baha’i Faith were higher than Islam from 1910 to 2010 because it includes the “formative age” of the Baha’i Faith (1921-1944)FOURTH PERIOD: THE INCEPTION OF THE FORMATIVE AGE OF THE BAHÁ’Í FAITH 1921–1944

Growth of the Baha’i Faith has slowed down since the year 2000 because the new goal is consolidation and community building, so the emphasis is not spreading the Faith all over the world as it was before in the 20th century.

Christians cannot stop this process no matter how many adjustments they make in order to try to make Christianity more attractive because it was ordained by God. Christianity is a dying religion, but since it is still the largest religion in the world, it will take a long time before it dies out altogether.

The Baha’i Faith is still very small, as are all new religions, and there are logical reasons for that. One of these reasons is that religious people cling to the religions of the past and believe they have the one true religion. This is true of Judaism and Christianity, less do Islam, because Muslims recognize all the true religions that preceded Islam.

It is stated somewhere in the Baha’i Writings that when Christians start outright and vicious attacks on the Baha’i Faith that is when the Baha’i Faith will start to grow exponentially, because it will be brought to the forefront and be known by everyone, unlike now. Mind you, Christians already attack the Baha’i Faith online, on websites and in forums, but that is small potatoes compared to what will happen in the future, and as far as I am concerned that cannot happen soon enough, because I am ready.

 

[Trailblazer]

I find the ' word ' Moses was speaking about was directed to only one nation, the nation of ancient Israel.
That ' word ' was the temporary Constitution of the Mosaic Law contract only for the one nation of ancient Israel.
Jesus as Messiah fulfilled that Law, so the Christian Scriptures are a fulfillment of the old Hebrew Scriptures.
- Romans 10:4; Revelation 22:18-19

I agree with what you said, that the Christian Scriptures are a fulfillment of the old Hebrew Scriptures, but I do not believe that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies for the Messiah that would come in the end times, as written in the Hebrew scriptures. I believe that Jesus was a Messiah, but not the end times Messiah. I believe the end times Messiah was Baha'u'llah, who came to finish the work Jesus started and reveal the many things that Jesus held back owing to the fact that humanity was not ready to hear those things back in the days of Jesus.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Surely, you don’t think all those who are hungry or naked or are prisoners, that Christ would call them, his brothers? Many hungry / naked people / those in prison today, are “goat”-like, certainly not following / obedient to Jesus, are they?
Actually, Jesus was talking specifically about his “brethren”... his brothers. (Jesus says that “sheep”-like ones — those obedient to / following Christ — are found doing good things to his brothers. But, these sheeplike ones are not called his brothers.)
Consider what Paul says about these ‘brothers of Christ’ :Hebrews 2:11;Romans 8:17
... If you don’t mind, I’d like to ask,..... ]@URAVIP2ME[/USER] , to explain differences between those called ‘brothers of Christ’, and the sheep, of Matthew 25.
And to answer your question...
To us (me & those I mentioned above), there are only two outcomes for everyone who ever lived: everlasting life, or everlasting death (ie., permanent destruction). No torment...ever.
The Greek word translated ‘torment’ in English, carries the thought of ‘being jailed’....in these instances, being held for all time by the chains of death.Take care.

Yes, in Scripture a tormentor was a jailer - Matthew 18:34; Matthew 18:30.
Often I find when people read the word 'torment' they're really thinking the word 'torture', so in Bible speak, so to speak, there is a difference.

In the parable or illustration, I would say the figurative humble ' sheep class or category ' of Matthew 25:37, who are at Jesus' right hand of favor, is because the ' sheep ' did acts of kindness toward Jesus' 'spiritual' brothers of verse 40.
These ' brothers' are the holy ones (saints) of Hebrews 6:10.
Only people like those of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18 are considered to be as the ' brothers ' of Matthew 25:40.
The 'sheep' doing good to the ' brothers ' (aiding them literally and with spiritual support) is the same as doing good to Jesus.
Thus, the ' sheep ' show their deep concern for Jesus' brothers because the devil makes ' war ' with them - Revelation 12:17.
So, more is involved than just human kindness because the ' sheep ' are Not like false clergy, etc. who might do acts of kindness.
I hope this is of some help as we remember this is a parable illustration about Jesus coming ' glory ' time of Matthew 25:31-33.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I agree with what you said, that the Christian Scriptures are a fulfillment of the old Hebrew Scriptures, but I do not believe that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies for the Messiah that would come in the end times, as written in the Hebrew scriptures. I believe that Jesus was a Messiah, but not the end times Messiah. I believe the end times Messiah was Baha'u'llah, who came to finish the work Jesus started and reveal the many things that Jesus held back owing to the fact that humanity was not ready to hear those things back in the days of Jesus.
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Yes, and I find the apostles were Not ready to bear that Jesus would die as he did.
At Pentecost, God's spirit was poured out on them to 'guide' them and set up 1st-century Christianity for us. - Acts chapter 2.
Yes, the showing of ' things to come ' is found at 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.
We have reached the international ' final phase ' of Matthew 24:14; Acts1:8.
So, this means we are approaching that ' final signal ' of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.
When the powers that be are saying, " Peace and Security..." that is the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.

 

[Deeje]

The passage is pretty explicit that the suffering is "everlasting". There's nothing about the king wiping them out of existence.

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire"

Are you acquainted with "gehenna"? It was Jerusalem's rubbish dump where the fires were kept burning day and night with the addition of sulfur (brimstone). Jesus used it to symbolize what happens to those who disobey and disrespect God. Those who were considered unworthy of a decent burial were cast into "gehenna" to dispose of their remains. To a Jew this was tantamount to God forgetting that you ever existed.

That is explained by the term "everlasting destruction"....what does fire do? It destroys everything till there is nothing left.

Matthew 10:28...
"And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna."

Gehenna is "the Lake of fire" which is not a literal place since "death and hades" are thrown into this "lake". (Revelation 20:13-14) Symbolizing their removal from human experience.

Revelation 21:8...
But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and the sexually immoral and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This means the second death.”

The "lake of fire" is "the second death".....a death from which no one returns. Whatever goes into this place, never comes out.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 says of the wicked....."These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength."

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Are you acquainted with "gehenna"? It was Jerusalem's rubbish dump where the fires were kept burning day and night with the addition of sulfur (brimstone). Jesus used it to symbolize what happens to those who disobey and disrespect God. Those who were considered unworthy of a decent burial were cast into "gehenna" to dispose of their remains. To a Jew this was tantamount to God forgetting that you ever existed.

That is explained by the term "everlasting destruction"....what does fire do? It destroys everything till there is nothing left.

Matthew 10:28...
"And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna."

Gehenna is "the Lake of fire" which is not a literal place since "death and hades" are thrown into this "lake". (Revelation 20:13-14) Symbolizing their removal from human experience.

Revelation 21:8...
But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and the sexually immoral and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This means the second death.”

The "lake of fire" is "the second death".....a death from which no one returns. Whatever goes into this place, never comes out.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 says of the wicked....."These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength."

But what about "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever. They have no rest day or night"? Revelation 14:11 That sounds pretty eternal to me.

 

[Deeje]

But what about "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever. They have no rest day or night"? Revelation 14:11 That sounds pretty eternal to me.

This was my reply to you before...
"You will notice that it is "the smoke of their torment" that "ascends forever" not the torment itself that lasts forever.....have you ever seen the aftermath of a forest fire where people's homes have been lost? What remains after everything is destroyed by the fire? The smoke continues to ascend for some time as a stark reminder of what took place. This is also what I believe is meant here. The fire is not literal and neither is the smoke. Since whatever goes into the lake of fire (gehenna) is destroyed, you have to be alive to suffer torment. The 'torment' that Jesus caused the religious leaders of his day was because of his teachings, whilst they were very much alive, but "dead" in their sins....he exposed them as the worst hypocrites ever! (Matthew ch 23) That is when "the weeping and gnashing of teeth" took place. That is why they wanted to silence him."

In order to torment people they must be alive and conscious.....but the dead are neither alive or conscious. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) So the actual torment 'day and night', has to have taken place whilst they were alive. This is why the Jews wanted Jesus dead. His message was tormenting them. Please read Matthew ch 23.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

So are you saying that if God interact with this world, there would not he all the evil pain and suffering are so rampant in this world? I believe that despite God sending Messengers telling us how we should live, some people chose to ignore those messages and not follow them so that is why there is evil in the world, since evil is caused by man and the choices he makes and acts he commits, given man has free will to do either good or evil. There is other suffering in the world that is not caused by man’s choices and actions, and we are simply forced to endure this kind of suffering because we have no choice. Man is forced to endure them because thye are our fate.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248.

Well, thanks for all that information. I do not have much time to study these days but I learn a lot from reading what people post on the forum.

It is interesting you mention extinction because Baha’u’llah wrote that God could afford to dispense with all His creatures if He wanted to. God has no needs since God is totally self-sufficient and self-subsisting so God does not need humans for anything. The only reason God reveals anything through Messengers is for human benefit, and it does not affect God if we choose to reject His Messengers, it only affects us.

So if God had wanted us to go extinct He has had plenty of time to make that happen. I believe that could have been our fate if God had not sent Baha’u’llah. I believe that everything that we see now that is heading in a positive direction is the result of His Revelation, even though most people are not even aware of it let alone believing in it. I believe that a new world order is slowing rising and eventually it will replace the old world order. This is what is referred to as the Kingdom of God on earth in the Bible.

Jesus asked for us to pray for the Kingdom to come, Jesus never said he was coming to build it, as Christians believe. That belief is based upon a misunderstanding of the Bible. Christians take certain verses and interpret them to mean what they want them to mean, because they so want Jesus to return, but that is not even what the verses say at all. Thus Christians have completely misconstrued the meaning of the Bible, which is actually very accurate regarding what will happen in the ends times.

Christians believe that Jesus is going to return and wave His magic wand and fix everything that is wrong in this world, all the things that humans have messed up over the centuries and that Jesus will build the Kingdom of God on earth. By contrast, Baha’is believe that humans will build the Kingdom of God on earth by following the blueprint instructions Baha’u’llah laid out.

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

I do agree that what happens to Christianity is controlled by political forces and other actions of men, not by God. If God had His way, Christianity would be no more. This is all IMHO. I believe that Christianity will eventually be phased out but this won’t happen overnight because humans move slowly and God does not interfere in human free will decisions.

Maybe you do not know this, but Islam is now the fastest growing religion in the world and by the year 2060 it will overtake Christianity. The Baha’i Faith is right behind Islam as the second fastest growing religion in the world.

The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

From 2000-2010 Islam became the fastest growing religion (1.86 %) and the Baha’i Faith was the second fastest growing religion (1.72%). Christianity is trailing behind at 1.31%.

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

The growth rates of the Baha’i Faith were higher than Islam from 1910 to 2010 because it includes the “formative age” of the Baha’i Faith (1921-1944)FOURTH PERIOD: THE INCEPTION OF THE FORMATIVE AGE OF THE BAHÁ’Í FAITH 1921–1944

Growth of the Baha’i Faith has slowed down since the year 2000 because the new goal is consolidation and community building, so the emphasis is not spreading the Faith all over the world as it was before in the 20th century.

Christians cannot stop this process no matter how many adjustments they make in order to try to make Christianity more attractive because it was ordained by God. Christianity is a dying religion, but since it is still the largest religion in the world, it will take a long time before it dies out altogether.

The Baha’i Faith is still very small, as are all new religions, and there are logical reasons for that. One of these reasons is that religious people cling to the religions of the past and believe they have the one true religion. This is true of Judaism and Christianity, less do Islam, because Muslims recognize all the true religions that preceded Islam.

It is stated somewhere in the Baha’i Writings that when Christians start outright and vicious attacks on the Baha’i Faith that is when the Baha’i Faith will start to grow exponentially, because it will be brought to the forefront and be known by everyone, unlike now. Mind you, Christians already attack the Baha’i Faith online, on websites and in forums, but that is small potatoes compared to what will happen in the future, and as far as I am concerned that cannot happen soon enough, because I am ready.

I've known and been predicting Christianity's demise for 10 years. Christianity has had its day in the sun--make that 2000 years in the sun. It's time to move on. For me the very fact Christianity is evaporating right before our eyes is proof enough the Bible is just another ordinary holy book written by men, not God. God promised to David that He would establish David's line forever in 2 Samuel 7:16 "Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever." When it became evident that David's line ended in 586 BC with the Babylonian invasion--something apparently even God didn't foresee--Christian theologians had to think of a way to keep David's line going so they reinterpret the verse by seizing on Jesus to be David's eternal successor in order to make the failed prophecy legitimate. Now it appears that even Jesus will go extinct sometime this century. This is my HO.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

This was my reply to you before...
"You will notice that it is "the smoke of their torment" that "ascends forever" not the torment itself that lasts forever.....have you ever seen the aftermath of a forest fire where people's homes have been lost? What remains after everything is destroyed by the fire? The smoke continues to ascend for some time as a stark reminder of what took place. This is also what I believe is meant here. The fire is not literal and neither is the smoke. Since whatever goes into the lake of fire (gehenna) is destroyed, you have to be alive to suffer torment. The 'torment' that Jesus caused the religious leaders of his day was because of his teachings, whilst they were very much alive, but "dead" in their sins....he exposed them as the worst hypocrites ever! (Matthew ch 23) That is when "the weeping and gnashing of teeth" took place. That is why they wanted to silence him."

In order to torment people they must be alive and conscious.....but the dead are neither alive or conscious. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) So the actual torment 'day and night', has to have taken place whilst they were alive. This is why the Jews wanted Jesus dead. His message was tormenting them. Please read Matthew ch 23.

But you didn't explain "And they have no rest day or night..."

 

[Deeje]

But you didn't explain "And they have no rest day or night..."

The religious leaders did not rest until they had Jesus put to death. They had been plotting a way to accomplish it since Jesus began exposing them for their blatant hypocrisy for three and a half years....and they broke God's law in their desperation. They had an illegal trial and produced lying false witnesses.

The Jews had no authority to execute anyone (John 18:31) so the leaders trumped up charges of sedition against the Roman Empire saying that he was a King, basically seeking to usurp the King of the Jews appointed by Rome. When Pilate tried to release him saying that he did not find him guilty of any capital offense, the crowd went into a frenzy. Whipped up by their religious leaders, they threatened to report Pilate to Caesar for treason.....fearful of losing his position, Pilate relented and after having Jesus flogged and bleeding to appease them, he handed Jesus over to the Jews to do with him as they wished. He washed his hands of the whole affair. But the Jews had cursed themselves and their children with Jesus' blood. (Matthew 27:25) God abandoned them so that they never enjoyed God's blessing again. (Matthew 23:37-39)

If you read Matthew 23 you will see that Jesus condemned those wicked religious leaders to gehenna...a place where body and soul were "destroyed"....not tormented. We do not have a spiritual part of us that departs from the body at death...nowhere does the Bible teach this. The dead "sleep" until it is time for Jesus to resurrect them, like he did, Lazarus. (John 11:11-14; John 5:28-29)

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

The religious leaders did not rest until they had Jesus put to death. They had been plotting a way to accomplish it since Jesus began exposing them for their blatant hypocrisy for three and a half years....and they broke God's law in their desperation. They had an illegal trial and produced lying false witnesses.

The Jews had no authority to execute anyone (John 18:31) so the leaders trumped up charges of sedition against the Roman Empire saying that he was a King, basically seeking to usurp the King of the Jews appointed by Rome. When Pilate tried to release him saying that he did not find him guilty of any capital offense, the crowd went into a frenzy. Whipped up by their religious leaders, they threatened to report Pilate to Caesar for treason.....fearful of losing his position, Pilate relented and after having Jesus flogged and bleeding to appease them, he handed Jesus over to the Jews to do with him as they wished. He washed his hands of the whole affair. But the Jews had cursed themselves and their children with Jesus' blood. (Matthew 27:25) God abandoned them so that they never enjoyed God's blessing again. (Matthew 23:37-39)

If you read Matthew 23 you will see that Jesus condemned those wicked religious leaders to gehenna...a place where body and soul were "destroyed"....not tormented. We do not have a spiritual part of us that departs from the body at death...nowhere does the Bible teach this. The dead "sleep" until it is time for Jesus to resurrect them, like he did, Lazarus. (John 11:11-14; John 5:28-29)

I'm still not clear, sorry. Revelation 14:9-11 This is during the Great tribulation last 3 1/2 years:

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

It's clear that the people who worship the beast and receive his mark on their forehead or hand are the ones that will be tormented day and night forever. That's what the text says.

I get your analogy to a burning house, and sure, smoke goes up after the flames are extinguished, but eventually the smoke ceases. This smoke rises forever, that's what the text says. That must mean the people are burning forever and their flesh is smoking forever which rises up forever. Isn't that what the text says?

 

[Brian2]

If you read Matthew 23 you will see that Jesus condemned those wicked religious leaders to gehenna...a place where body and soul were "destroyed"....not tormented. We do not have a spiritual part of us that departs from the body at death...nowhere does the Bible teach this. The dead "sleep" until it is time for Jesus to resurrect them, like he did, Lazarus. (John 11:11-14; John 5:28-29)

Of course the Bible teaches that we have a spiritual part that departs the body at death. (Lazarus in hades-Luke 16, Samuel coming back from his rest as a spirit to prophesy to Saul-1Sam 28, The soul of the boy returning to his body-1Kings 17, Jesus saying that the soul does not die at the death of the body-Matt 10:28, Jesus saying on the cross "Father into your hands I commit my spirit" etc etc etc)
In JW theology the soul is destroyed at death, there is nothing to be resurrected, it is a recreation. Jesus said that He had been given authority to lay His life down and take it up again.(John 10:18) He could not lay down His life (His body die) and take it up again unless He had spirit which was alive and conscious.
Death is called "sleep" it is not called "extinction" or "non existence".
And don't speak about an "immortal" soul. I have not mentioned "immortal".

 

[Brian2]

I've known and been predicting Christianity's demise for 10 years. Christianity has had its day in the sun--make that 2000 years in the sun. It's time to move on. For me the very fact Christianity is evaporating right before our eyes is proof enough the Bible is just another ordinary holy book written by men, not God. God promised to David that He would establish David's line forever in 2 Samuel 7:16 "Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever." When it became evident that David's line ended in 586 BC with the Babylonian invasion--something apparently even God didn't foresee--Christian theologians had to think of a way to keep David's line going so they reinterpret the verse by seizing on Jesus to be David's eternal successor in order to make the failed prophecy legitimate. Now it appears that even Jesus will go extinct sometime this century. This is my HO.

Jesus was a physical descendant of David and the tribe of Judah remained in positions of authority after the Exile to Babylon and till the abolition of the Sanhedrin after Jesus death. (Gen 49:10)
Jesus is the one to whom the sceptre belongs and He is David's eternal successor.

 

[Brian2]

Yes, and I find the apostles were Not ready to bear that Jesus would die as he did.
At Pentecost, God's spirit was poured out on them to 'guide' them and set up 1st-century Christianity for us. - Acts chapter 2.
Yes, the showing of ' things to come ' is found at 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.
We have reached the international ' final phase ' of Matthew 24:14; Acts1:8.
So, this means we are approaching that ' final signal ' of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.
When the powers that be are saying, " Peace and Security..." that is the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.

And the Holy Spirit is promised to all who believe in Christ, and they become thereby, children of God and heirs with Christ.
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off— to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
John 14:23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Jesus was a physical descendant of David and the tribe of Judah remained in positions of authority after the Exile to Babylon and till the abolition of the Sanhedrin after Jesus death. (Gen 49:10)
Jesus is the one to whom the sceptre belongs and He is David's eternal successor.

Yes, but the problematic part is that God promised David his line would never end i.e. it would be continuous until Jesus appeared, at least this is what I have read about scholars trying to define the meaning of this passage. Unfortunately that line was broken for 500 years. This is a point of much debate:

Some scholars state that God has promised an eternal dynasty to David unconditionally.(1 Kings 11:36, 15:4, 2 Kings 8:19) They feel the conditional promise of 1 Kings 9:4-7 seems to undercut this unconditional covenant. Most interpreters have taken the expression "throne of Israel" as a reference to the throne of the United Monarchy. They see this as a conditionalization of the unconditional dynastic promise to David's house expressed in 1 Kings 11:36, 15:4 and 2 Kings 8:19. They argue the presence of both unconditional and conditional promises to the house of David would create intense theological dissonance in the Book of Kings.[7][8][9][10]

Christians believe that the promise is of surviving descendants that could fulfill the role of king, which they state Jesus did, rather than a permanent earthly kingship.

Davidic dynasty in Bible prophecy - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

I've known and been predicting Christianity's demise for 10 years. Christianity has had its day in the sun--make that 2000 years in the sun. It's time to move on. For me the very fact Christianity is evaporating right before our eyes is proof enough the Bible is just another ordinary holy book written by men, not God. God promised to David that He would establish David's line forever in 2 Samuel 7:16 "Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever." When it became evident that David's line ended in 586 BC with the Babylonian invasion--something apparently even God didn't foresee--Christian theologians had to think of a way to keep David's line going so they reinterpret the verse by seizing on Jesus to be David's eternal successor in order to make the failed prophecy legitimate. Now it appears that even Jesus will go extinct sometime this century. This is my HO.

I fully agree that it is time to move on past Christianity, but it does not appear as if Christianity is going to evaporate any time soon. I mean you can see how tightly Christians hold on to their beliefs. So the only way they are going to lose ground is because of Islam and later the Baha'i Faith, whcih has a lot of catching up to do.

I believe that Jesus was 'a Messiah' but He was not the Messiah that was promised to the Jews who would come in the end times; that was Baha'u'llah. Christians cannot make Jesus into the Messiah since He did not fulfill any of the Messianic Age prophecies that Jews were expecting to be fulfilled. Christians believe that the same man Jesus will fulfill the remainder of those prophecies on at His second coming but that is impossible since Jesus is not alive in a resurrected physical body as Christians believe, so His body cannot descend from heaven in the clouds. I consider this a complete fantasy but you will never convince Christians of that... They will wait for Jesus till hell freezes over. The irony is that Christians still believe that Jesus is going to return to earth and build a Kingdom on earth despite what it says to the contrary in their own Bible: (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30, John 18:36)

I do not know anything about David's line ending in 586 BC with the Babylonian invasion, but regarding lineage, Baha'is believe the following. The link at the bottom has a chart that shows the Genealogy of the Prophets from Adam through Baha'u'llah.

1559. Bahá’u’lláh was a Descendent of Abraham Through Both Katurah and Sarah—Jesse, Son of Sarah, was the Father of David and Ancestor of Bahá’u’lláh

"Regarding your question concerning the Jesse from whom Bahá’u’lláh is descended: The Master says in 'Some Answered Questions', referring to Isaiah, chapter 11, verses 1 to 10, that these verses apply 'Word for word to Bahá’u’lláh'. He then identifies this Jesse as the father of David in the following words: '…for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse the father of David…', thus identifying the Jesse of Isaiah, chapter 11, with being the father of David. Bahá’u’lláh is thus the descendant of Jesse, the father of David.

"The Guardian hopes that this will clarify the matter for you. It is a tremendous and fascinating theme, Bahá’u’lláh's connection with the Faith of Judaism, and one which possesses great interest to Jew and Christian alike." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 11, 1942)

12: COMMENTARY ON THE ELEVENTH CHAPTER OF ISAIAH

Genealogy of Baha’u’llah Genealogy of The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh

Baha'is also believe that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the prophecies related to the Messiah who would rule on the throne of David. The way I interpret the passage below is that it is God is the Ancient Beauty who rules on the throne of David through Baha'u'llah.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

“LEND an ear unto the song of David. He saith: ‘Who will bring me into the Strong City?’ The Strong City is ‘Akká, which hath been named the Most Great Prison, and which possesseth a fortress and mighty ramparts… Peruse that which Isaiah hath spoken in His Book. He saith: ‘Get thee up into the high mountain, O Zion, that bringest good tidings; lift up thy voice with strength, O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings. Lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah: “Behold your God! Behold the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him.”’ This Day all the signs have appeared. A great City hath descended from heaven, and Zion trembleth and exulteth with joy at the Revelation of God, for it hath heard the Voice of God on every side.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 90-91

 

[Brian2]

Yes, but the problematic part is that God promised David his line would never end i.e. it would be continuous until Jesus appeared, at least this is what I have read about scholars trying to define the meaning of this passage. Unfortunately that line was broken for 500 years. This is a point of much debate:

Some scholars state that God has promised an eternal dynasty to David unconditionally.(1 Kings 11:36, 15:4, 2 Kings 8:19) They feel the conditional promise of 1 Kings 9:4-7 seems to undercut this unconditional covenant. Most interpreters have taken the expression "throne of Israel" as a reference to the throne of the United Monarchy. They see this as a conditionalization of the unconditional dynastic promise to David's house expressed in 1 Kings 11:36, 15:4 and 2 Kings 8:19. They argue the presence of both unconditional and conditional promises to the house of David would create intense theological dissonance in the Book of Kings.[7][8][9][10]

Christians believe that the promise is of surviving descendants that could fulfill the role of king, which they state Jesus did, rather than a permanent earthly kingship.

Davidic dynasty in Bible prophecy - Wikipedia

There are probably other things to consider. God promised exile for the Jews if they were not faithful to the Covenant and during exile there could be no King in Israel or Judah. So prophecies about the Messiah needed to fit with that promise also.
Maybe the best way to understand it is that there would always be someone from the line of David who could become King and that all the Kings of Judah would be from that line.