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Truth: either God exists or He don't.

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
OK, your welcome to hold to your theory that everything was created by nothing.

I don't have such a theory - neither, as far as I know, does anybody else. Once again your comprehensive ignorance of science is on full display. And you ignored my point completely.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Age and starlight problems are classic. And they have a classic rebuttal. The atheist assumes a linear universe. They assume the rates observed today are the same as the rates yesterday. This may not be a valid assumption.

Regarding DNA, the latest research points to an Intelligent Creator.
Sorry wrong on both counts. But then these are typical errors by the scientifically illiterate. Changes in the speed of light would have physical consequences. One does not get to change such basics willy nilly. The energy of radioactive decay is tied to the speed of light. Your claim of light being faster at one point would in effect melt the Earth. You are the one that is making assumptions since you do not understand the consequences of changing rates of decay, speed of light, etc..

As to your claim of research pointing to an Intelligent Creator for DNA you need to support that. In other words Citation Needed! And that means a reliable scientific source. Not a dishonest one where authors are required to swear to not follow the scientific method.
 

Wrangler

Ask And You Will Receive
it is in our nature to sin, so it isn't a choice

Boy, are you confused.

Don’t let semantics trip you up. God imbued us as moral agents. He gave us liberty along with life. This is our nature, capacity to choose.

Given our moral agency, we inevitably make wrong choices. This does not mean that every human makes the same wrong choice. We are not equally tempted by the same thing.

The paradox is that God made us capable of error while holding us to a standard of perfection. The solution is humility so no man can brag. We are not made to make it alone. We are made to require divine grace through His Son.

It is perfect. God’s thoughts are not our thoughts.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The current model is based on mans tiny limited and narrow capacity to understand reality. It's the best he can muster up without admitting the stark evidence before him.
God deliberately hides the truth from proud intellectuals and reveals it to babies and simple people, so the smart people wouldn't be able to grasp the truth
You really need to learn what is and what is not evidence. Hand waving is not evidence. The Bible is not evidence. In the sciences there is a very rational definition of evidence:

Scientific evidence is evidence that serves to either support or counter a scientific theory or hypothesis. Such evidence is expected to be empirical evidence and interpretable in accordance with scientific method.

And once again you claim that God is immoral. If you want people to worship your God why do you keep claiming that he is a liar and now immoral?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Boy, are you confused.

Don’t let semantics trip you up. God imbued us as moral agents. He gave us liberty along with life. This is our nature, capacity to choose.

Given our moral agency, we inevitably make wrong choices. This does not mean that every human makes the same wrong choice. We are not equally tempted by the same thing.

The paradox is that God made us capable of error while holding us to a standard of perfection. The solution is humility so no man can brag. We are not made to make it alone. We are made to require divine grace through His Son.

It is perfect. God’s thoughts are not our thoughts.
So according to you God is immoral and unjust. That explains a lot.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
OK, I finally get it. You refuse to believe in a creator God, unless you can be a creator god yourself. Sorry I can help you with that one, you may need some special help with that

Only in terms of determining whether my natural surroundings were created by someone. Logic 101.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Age and starlight problems are classic. And they have a classic rebuttal. The atheist assumes a linear universe. They assume the rates observed today are the same as the rates yesterday. This may not be a valid assumption.

Leaving aside total lack of evidence (which we would actually expect); so your god just changed the rates to fool (lie to) us?

Regarding DNA, the latest research points to an Intelligent Creator.

Such as (from non-creationists - creationist sources are unreliable and often lie)?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Itr would be God lying according to you. I have already told you He doesn't use the pond scum method to create things. He creates them fully formed, finished and looking mature for your benefit
Not just according to me. According to anyone that can reason rationally. And what gall! You think that you can tell your God how he created the Earth. That is amazing. If God is real his work tells us how he made the Earth. The Earth tells us a different story.

You should know that it was early Christian scientists that first refuted the Noah's Ark myth.
 

37818

Active Member
I guess you are referring to being born again of the water and the Spirit.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
There are different interpretations of the water of John 3:5. It is my understanding it is Jesus' answer to Nicodemus' question, John 3:4, "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

". . . That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. . . ." So in John 3:5 Jesus speaks of two births, not just one.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The problem is, there's nothing new in the universe. God predestined the whole of human history from the beginning to the end of time. Nothing more will be discovered than God planted for us to find. Just like we played the Easter egg hunt as kids, we can only discover what God put there for us to find and no more and no less

Nice claim. Evidence?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
OK, your welcome to hold to your theory that everything was created by nothing. Very interesting and very concerning. I would seek some professional advice about this

I pointed out before that science does NOT say that 'something came from nothing'. In fact, it is *religion* that says this.

What science actually says is that whenever there was time, there was also space, matter, and energy.

So, don't claim that others are holding to a belief that is implied by your system and NOT by theirs.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The current model is based on mans tiny limited and narrow capacity to understand reality. It's the best he can muster up without admitting the stark evidence before him.
God deliberately hides the truth from proud intellectuals and reveals it to babies and simple people, so the smart people wouldn't be able to grasp the truth

Isn't that convenient? you can ignore the evidence and say the truth is just hidden.

On the other side, I say that the truth is public and can be observed. All you need to do is take the actual evidence seriously.

A deity that withholds evidence to fool people is a deceiver. Do you really claim that is what is going on?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Age and starlight problems are classic. And they have a classic rebuttal. The atheist assumes a linear universe. They assume the rates observed today are the same as the rates yesterday. This may not be a valid assumption.

Regarding DNA, the latest research points to an Intelligent Creator.

Actually, that is not the case. It is possible to test whether rates were the same in the past. For example, the constancy of the speed of light was tested by the 1987 supernova when the light from the supernova was reflected by a cloud nearby. The distance between the supernova and the cloud was consistent with the *modern* speed of light and NOT a faster speed in the past.

This is only one case, but the constancy of the basic parameters is something that is tested.

Show the reference where DNA points to an intelligent creator.
 

37818

Active Member
To me Romans 6:23 and Ezekiel 3:20 mean that the soul of the sinner will experience spiritual death
We have a different understanding of the death of the soul. Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." -- Matthew 10:28. Hell aka the second death. Revelation 21:8.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
We have a different understanding of the death of the soul. Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." -- Matthew 10:28. Hell aka the second death. Revelation 21:8.
Yes, we do have a different understanding, but who is to say your understanding is correct and my understanding is incorrect?

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Where in that verse does it say the soul will experience physical death, annihilation? It says "destroy." To me, destroying the soul means that soul will experience spiritual death, so it will not have eternal life as do the souls of those who are near to God.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Jesus was saying to deny our selfish desires, things we want that are not of God, and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for self shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus and God shall gain eternal life. It is the soul that gains eternal life, not the body.

So if we live for self and the worldly things we gain the whole world but we lose our soul because our soul will not gain eternal life, it will lose eternal life. In that sense our soul dies. However, since the soul is immortal, it continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243


Baha’u’llah wrote the same thing as Jesus said regarding the soul that does not deny self, the destination of such a soul: “If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...” means it sinks into hell.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159


There are many different understandings of the second death. How do you know your understanding is correct?
I do not have an understanding because I never took the time to interpret those verses.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
The current model is based on mans tiny limited and narrow capacity to understand reality. It's the best he can muster up without admitting the stark evidence before him.
God deliberately hides the truth from proud intellectuals and reveals it to babies and simple people, so the smart people wouldn't be able to grasp the truth

You're contradicting yourself (not for the first time). How can this 'evidence' be stark and before us if it's being deliberately hidden by your god?

You appear to have wrapped yourself up in an entirely self-referential belief system that no element of reality can be allowed to upset. Any evidence, no matter how solid, can be dismissed as god's deception, hiding of the truth, or doing things in ways that we cannot understand or judge because of our limitations.

What is somewhat puzzling though is, given how compressively you've wrapped yourself up in this reality excluding bubble, why you seem so reluctant to even acknowledging when your caricature of science is corrected. For example, how many times have you accused science or people here of thinking the universe came from nothing and how many times has this been corrected only to have you repeat it again as if nobody had said anything about it? Why do you seem so scared to acknowledge that science has different ideas if you can just wave them away too as being god hiding the truth?
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
You really need to learn what is and what is not evidence. Hand waving is not evidence. The Bible is not evidence. In the sciences there is a very rational definition of evidence:

Scientific evidence is evidence that serves to either support or counter a scientific theory or hypothesis. Such evidence is expected to be empirical evidence and interpretable in accordance with scientific method.

And once again you claim that God is immoral. If you want people to worship your God why do you keep claiming that he is a liar and now immoral?
Well thanks for finally admitting that secular science is based on circular reasoning. You just admitted the evidence has to be interpreted in accordance with circular reasoning or scientific method which are one and the same.

It is now clear to me that secular science is your god
 
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