The concept of sin

[VoidCat]

God demands all allegiance or none.

so not having allegiance to him is a sin? Is that what you're saying?

 

[Kenny]

To me sin is the idea that something is an abomination in the eyes of the Divine. Its something that is not only wrong but is in direct rebellion of God...since I worship nature and nothing goes against nature everything is nature sin is irrelevant to me. You dont go to hell for it as I dont believe in the concept. If you do something that is against your moral code you can always change your actions. You can always improve on yourself as we are always learning.Sure some things are harmful but you can always learn improve and better yourself.

Does't even nature have sin in it?

 

[Glaurung]

If you have any moral standard by which you measure human acts you have by extension a concept of sin. It seems to me what people object to is not the concept of sin as few people deny all moral standards, but that God will punish sin ultimately. And every major religious tradition teaches that sin is punished. Christianity differs from Buddhism and Hinduism in that it insists that the eventual consequences of sin are eternal rather than temporary.

 

[Kenny]

If you have any moral standard by which you measure human acts you have by extension a concept of sin. It seems to me what people object to is not the concept of sin as few people deny all moral standards, but that God will punish sin ultimately. And every major religious tradition teaches that sin is punished. Christianity differs from Buddhism and Hinduism in that it insists that the eventual consequences of sin are eternal rather than temporary.

Doesn't Christianity also teach that sin can be eradicated? Like other religions?

 

[Glaurung]

Doesn't Christianity also teach that sin can be eradicated? Like other religions?

It teaches that you can repent of sin and thus avoid Hell. Although Catholicism maintains that even forgiven sins still need to be atoned for by a corresponding level of suffering either in this life or in Purgatory.

 

[VoidCat]

Does't even nature have sin in it?

depends on your concept of sin...
Not in my opinion no. Nature just is. Its not good or evil it just is. Seeing things as sinful implies you see things that aren't only evil or wrong as bad but also an affront against God...I dont think the gods care if you make mistakes as long as you work on them altho most gods dont care about people enough to care about that either.

 

[VoidCat]

@KenS Here is a link on paganism and sin: Do Pagans Believe in the Concept of Sin?

To have the concept of sin in a Pagan belief system, then, one must assume that (a) the Pagan gods have a set of unified inviolable laws and that (b) they actually care if we break those laws. However, this is not typically the case, because frequently in Pagan religion, the duty of mortals is not to blindly follow the laws of the gods. Instead, our job is to honor the gods while accepting responsibility for our own actions.

this part... I don't believe the gods actually have a set of rules that they're worried about humans breaking.

 

[Kenny]

depends on your concept of sin...
Not in my opinion no. Nature just is. Its not good or evil it just is. Seeing things as sinful implies you see things that aren't only evil or wrong as bad but also an affront against God...I dont think the gods care if you make mistakes as long as you work on them altho most gods dont care about people enough to care about that either.

Interesting...

Yes... it is always good to learn from our mistakes.

But if eating your own offspring in nature isn't sin or wrong and "just is", wouldn't that precipitate the thought that it is OK for humans to do it too?

if not... why is OK in nature (not an aberration of nature) but not Ok for humans?

 

[Kenny]

@KenS Here is a link on paganism and sin: Do Pagans Believe in the Concept of Sin?
this part... I don't believe the gods actually have a set of rules that they're worried about humans breaking.

Thank you... will check it out

 

[VoidCat]

But if eating your own offspring in nature isn't sin or wrong and "just is", wouldn't that precipitate the thought that it is OK for humans to do it too?

Just cuz something is wrong doesn't mean it is sinful...in regards to humans we have social rules and reasoning that makes eating your offspring...as a result eating your own offspring would be wrong because of the fact it hurts other humans and breaks social rules humans have created in order to order and peace...not because it breaks divine law

 

[Colt]

so not having allegiance to him is a sin? Is that what you're saying?

Yes, its a simple truth.

 

[Colt]

Sin is deliberate disloyalty to Deity. There are degrees of disloyalty:
the partial loyalty of indecision;
the divided loyalty of confliction;
the dying loyalty of indifference;
and the death of loyalty exhibited in devotion to godless ideals.

 

[Kenny]

Just cuz something is wrong doesn't mean it is sinful...in regards to humans we have social rules and reasoning that makes eating your offspring...as a result eating your own offspring would be wrong because of the fact it hurts other humans and breaks social rules humans have created in order to order and peace...not because it breaks divine law

What is the difference between wrong and sin? Not quite understanding how you differentiate it.

 

[VoidCat]

What is the difference between wrong and sin? Not quite understanding how you differentiate it.

Sin is going against the rules and laws of a deity or deities make for you. Wrong is breaking the moral code you make for yourself or society makes.

 

[Kenny]

Sin is going against the rules and laws of a deity or deities make for you. Wrong is breaking the moral code you make for yourself or society makes.

Thanks... definitions help so that we can be on the same page

 

[loverofhumanity]

Note: not a debate thread..just me trying to understand.

I honestly dont understand why some people believe in or want to believe in the concept of sin. When I was a christian I believed that anyone who did not repent their sin and turn their life over to Christ would go to hell...now that I am no longer a christian it seems like a good way to have a lot of guilt and to keep someone in Christianity. I know Christianity is not the only religion with the concept of sin but I dont know how other religions view it...So if you believe in sin please explain why...I am not going to try to change your mind I am just asking to try and understand.

My take is we need to reword the name sin to discover more meanings. Wrongdoing and crime comes to mind for me. To harm, hurt or injure another in words or actions.

A conscience is a safeguard against wrongdoing and guilt and remorse to an extent can help change us so that we recognise our mistake and try to correct it and transform ourselves into better people.

I don’t believe we are born sinners but with a clean slate and it does clearly state in the Bible that we were created in the image of God so it’s impossible to be born sinners as God and His Image are sinless.

So tools such as guilt and remorse play an important role in correcting bad behaviour.

Heaven I believe is a state or condition of inner peace and composure and I don’t think we can be at peace with ourselves if we harm or injure others.

Christians I believe have not really thought through how we were created - in the image of God, so have adopted a stance in contradiction to what the Bible says.

 

[wellwisher]

Note: not a debate thread..just me trying to understand.

I honestly dont understand why some people believe in or want to believe in the concept of sin. When I was a christian I believed that anyone who did not repent their sin and turn their life over to Christ would go to hell...now that I am no longer a christian it seems like a good way to have a lot of guilt and to keep someone in Christianity. I know Christianity is not the only religion with the concept of sin but I dont know how other religions view it...So if you believe in sin please explain why...I am not going to try to change your mind I am just asking to try and understand.

Sin is connected to the symbolic tree of knowledge of good and evil, which was the tree occupied by Satan. The tree of knowledge is symbolic of law. Law defines sin. Paul said, One would not know about sin unless the law told you about it. He also said sin is not imputed where there is no law. The power of sin is the law and if you remove the law, you remove the sin.

A good example are the marijuana laws in the USA. Some of the 50 states have laws against marijuana, while the other half of the states say this is legal. As you travel across the country smoking marijuana, you would be sinning in the states that define it as a sin. However, in a few hours you would not be sinning where it is legal. The sin is only defined where the law says it is a sin. If the law says killing was legal, such as in war, then there is no sin to kill. However, killing is a sin in civilian life. There, the wage of sin is death. But there is no death penalty, where there is no law against killing. That is law shady of man.

It was against social media law to mention voter fraud in the 2020 election, even with a thousand eye witnesses, who never got to fully testify. FaceBook and others would enforce the censorship law, with any violators punished by eternal censorship and Facebook damnation. Moral law has no such sin.

Man has created far more laws and sins than God and Religion. The USA EPA law book is about 70,000 pages of laws and sins. That alone far exceeds all religions combined. As Satan said, the moment you eat; buy into the idea of law and sin, you shall be like a God, thinking you know good and evil and how to judge it. One gets to be the hangman for non-crime, called crime, by the law of man; kill witches.

The pin head owner of Facebook, Zuckerberg, enjoys acting like a little god, defining eternal sins and damnation, to protect his business, from the leftist mob. Zuckerberg ate of the tree knowledge, as do most Democrats, who think they are wiser than all. They make more laws than anyone. The worse laws and defined sins, have come from laws of man. Yet atheists tend to fixate of the 1% and ignore the 99% they, as humans, have contributed to.

When Trump was reducing regulations and voiding laws connected to prison, drug offenses and even military spats, he was reducing the number of man made sins. Sin is not imputed where there is no longer a law. The Democrats, on the other hand, like law and defining sin and will try to add to the laws, so they can create more sins to punish. One can tell the demon people serve ,by the number of laws and sins they try to create. A god fearing person is about using only an objective law set good for all.

Moral law was designed to create a basic core set of laws, based on objective standards, consistent for all humans. All humans have the same human nature, which define us as a species. As such, it seems reasonable that a law set should exist, apart from the laws of man, that is consistent for human nature. Atheists do not like the idea of an objective set of moral laws, since this would imply religion used a semi-scientific basis for moral law, that is consistent and predictable, like other laws of nature; laws of human nature.

For example, the ten commandments all make logical sense, if they are looked at from the POV of the maximizing the needs the group, over the individual. The reason for this approach is a team can become more than the sum of its parts. If the team is optimized, than all the parts become elevated. If the team wins the championship, even the least player becomes a league champion, with a ring to prove it. A tiny part from a fancy sports car can command a high price since the car; team, is so fancy.

Laws of man were more about the needs of the individual. The ten commandment may say thou shall not bear false witness. This is good for the team. However, false witness was a assumed to be useful to the needs of some during the collusion delusion, where the team divided and suffered. This may have allow ed some people on the team to shine, but came at the expense of the team unity.

Laws of man, through the ages, will try to define law and sin to stack the deck on one's own favor. Spying on an opposition candidate was evil when Nixon did it, but was it good and lawful when Obama and Biden did it. When Nixon did it there was jail time due or sin, and when Obama did it nobody goes to jail since it was refined as good. This is not how you optimize a team via human nature. This is immoral human law. Moral law is not liked by sinners since it judges by objective standards and confounds those who hide their moral sins behind their own manmade laws.


s

 

[Vee]

Note: not a debate thread..just me trying to understand.

I honestly dont understand why some people believe in or want to believe in the concept of sin. When I was a christian I believed that anyone who did not repent their sin and turn their life over to Christ would go to hell...now that I am no longer a christian it seems like a good way to have a lot of guilt and to keep someone in Christianity. I know Christianity is not the only religion with the concept of sin but I dont know how other religions view it...So if you believe in sin please explain why...I am not going to try to change your mind I am just asking to try and understand.

From a Christian point of view, you sin when you do something that God is against. The bible also says that when people repent of wrong doing and change their behavior accordingly, God forgives them, so holding on to guilt doesn't make that much sense. It is possible to move on. Even the people with the best intentions make serious mistakes sometimes.
I don't actually believe in the concept of a hell of fire so I'm not afraid of that, regardless of my actions. I mean, I want to do God's will to the best of my abilities, but if at some point my behavior turns the wrong way, I'm not afraid of an eternal punishment. From what I've studied, that's not what the bible teaches.

 

[Kenny]

Christians I believe have not really thought through how we were created - in the image of God, so have adopted a stance in contradiction to what the Bible says.

I'm sure that would be true in some cases... but on the face value of what you are saying, I would disagree.

The very "born-again" experience is about returning to His image and likeness again.

 

[McBell]

Interesting...

Yes... it is always good to learn from our mistakes.

But if eating your own offspring in nature isn't sin or wrong and "just is", wouldn't that precipitate the thought that it is OK for humans to do it too?

if not... why is OK in nature (not an aberration of nature) but not Ok for humans?

Ego.
More specifically, the human thought that humans are better than the rest of the animals.