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Truth: either God exists or He don't.

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
As I said, you can't see spiritual things because God hasn't opened your spiritual eyes. So you are spiritually blind, God said that spiritual things are foolishness to the damned. Only His elect can see and understand them.

Your position is irrational, that is why you use the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. You are guided by emotions, your feelings, with no objective standard. So basically your answer should be that you have no evidence.
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
Maybe God removed your desire to drink or maybe not. Maybe it was your belief and trust in God and Jesus that removed the desire.

You attribute all that you have to Jesus, but I attribute it to fate. Do you want to know how I know? Logic. Many Christians who are ‘saved by Jesus’ do not have a great job, a beautiful house, or a marriage.
God said He would curse all those who trust in their understanding and logic. The reason He said that is because we are all born with a wicked sin nature, he said our hearts are wicked above all things so according to Him you are placing your trust and eternal destiny in the most wicked thing in existence.

Good luck with that one.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
The greatest scientists of all time have been Christians, so we don't need secular scientists for anything
Scientist is not science. Okay, we don't need secular scientists, but we do need secular science. Even a religious person make compromises and do secular science.

Don't forget that it was a Christian scientist who was doing secular science, that helped give us the stepping stone for the big bang model that we have today. And you can thank the great Christian scientists who were doing secular science, for the reason why today, ID is not taught in science classes.

But of course, some people would rather blame it on conspiracy theories for why ID is not being taught in science classes. You should instead put some blame on those great Christian scientists for denying pseudoscience to be taught in science classes. ;)
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
God said He would curse all those who trust in their understanding and logic.

Well adapted meme. We can't have believers thinking logically, that would not be an advantage to its survival.

The reason He said that is because we are all born with a wicked sin nature, he said our hearts are wicked above all things...

If this is true, your god is a unjust monster for creating us like that.
 

37818

Active Member
hope you realize that the 'other Christians' you say are not genuine Christians say the same thing about you not being a genuine Christian. Do you understand why that presents a logical problem, since you are all reading from the same Bible? Who is to say that other Christians are not genuine, or that they do not know God?
There are Christian sects which would say my Christianity is not genuine. Those who reject, the salvation by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, which is through the interpretation of God's word alone (66 book Bible).

So you do not believe that works are needed? What about these verses?

Matthew 25:35-45 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
The teaching about His sheep and goats, and a difference in their good works. They are sheep and goats referring to bneing saved, sheep, and those who are not saved, goats. The works are not what makes them sheep and goats, rather being the sheep or goats are are what causes them to do and their works. In the Judgement, men are judged according to works. But the works are not the basis of salvation, but the names remaining in the book of life life, Revelation 20:15, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
So unless one"s sins are forgiven, names are removed, sins are the reason names are removed, Exodus 32:33.
The purpose of the New Covenant is to provide an irrevocable forgiveness, Jeremiah 31:31-34.
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
The difference is that you assume that the bible is true based off an irrational standard, which is just your emotions. So no reason for me to take anything it seriously because unlike you , I do not assume the Bible to be true just because my emotions says so.

Therefore Jesus "sayings" which other people who we do not know claim he said, I take with a grain of salt. Much like Muhammeds claims. So I hold them of equal value.
I appreciate your honesty, but I believed the same thing you do until God revealed the truth to me and proved Himself beyond a shadow of doubt. God actually said that it's impossible to believe in Him unless He reveals Himself to a person. He said that the things of God are utter foolishness to those who are spiritually blind.
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
Your position is irrational, that is why you use the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. You are guided by emotions, your feelings, with no objective standard. So basically your answer should be that you have no evidence.
For one to examine evidence, one needs to know what the evidence looks like. It like a cop looking for a wanted fugitive, but he never got any photos or description of him.
God said, they will seek after a sign but no sign will be given to them lest they repent and be saved. This tells me that God deliberately keeps certain people blind because He doesn't want them in heaven.
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
Scientist is not science. Okay, we don't need secular scientists, but we do need secular science. Even a religious person make compromises and do secular science.

Don't forget that it was a Christian scientist who was doing secular science, that helped give us the stepping stone for the big bang model that we have today. And you can thank the great Christian scientists who were doing secular science, for the reason why today, ID is not taught in science classes.

But of course, some people would rather blame it on conspiracy theories for why ID is not being taught in science classes. You should instead put some blame on those great Christian scientists for denying pseudoscience to be taught in science classes. ;)
Christians invented science, but the secular world stole it and bastardised it. That's why the world is so retarded and stuck in darkness and confusion.
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
Well adapted meme. We can't have believers thinking logically, that would not be an advantage to its survival.



If this is true, your god is a unjust monster for creating us like that.
But He never created us like that, we became like that when Satan deceived us to worship Him in the garden. Since that time we are His slaves, He owns humanity, but Jesus purchased many back of Him, so we should be thankful that He purchased any back off Him. He could have easily left everyone in Satan's possession, He was under no obligation to save anyone but because He's a loving merciful God He saved a remnant for Himself as trophies of His grace,
 

37818

Active Member
Ok. I'm stumped after that. :)
Jeremiah 31:31-34.
Jeremiah 31:33, ". . . But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. . . ." In other words that new birth is something God Himself does on account of believing in the One He sent.
Note Daniel 9:26, ". . . shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; . . ."
In 70AD that happend. The Messiah was cut off 40 years before that. So either this is true or the LORD God forsook Israel, leaving no prophets for no apparent reason. Which I as a non-Jewish Christian do not believe the latter. I believe the last prophets were the writers of the Christian New Testament, aka, the New Covenant.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
But He never created us like that, we became like that when Satan deceived us to worship Him in the garden. Since that time we are His slaves, He owns humanity...

Even if this were true, nobody alive today was in the garden to make that choice. God allowing Satan to 'own' all of humanity down through the generations is a gross injustice. If this god exists, it made all the rules, so it would be god who made us like that (even if indirectly).

...but Jesus purchased many back of Him, so we should be thankful that He purchased any back off Him.

Why? That's only correcting what was god's own injustice. What's more, the whole idea of god incarnating itself, then making sure it gets tortured to death (only to be magicked back to life again) somehow 'buying us back', is bizarre, unjust in itself, and somewhat sadomasochistic. The idea that we then have to believe this weird story in order to benefit only compounds the injustice.
 

37818

Active Member
Like I said, most quantum events are uncaused in this sense. For example, there is NO difference between a radioactive nucleus that will decay right now versus one that will decay in a million years. The nuclei are identical and NOTHING is causing the decay to happen now instead of in a million years.
We do not agree. No events take place apart from matter and or energy. And it is my understanding matter and energey and space-time are interrelated. Not knowing a cause of an event does not mean there was no cause. Now in theology, God is interpreted to be the Uncaused Cause. In my Christology that is the Son of God, aka, the Word. John 1:3.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
We do not agree.

You're not disagreeing with a person, you're denying the conclusions of the best scientific explanations we have that are supported by all the available evidence. You're clinging nineteenth century physics because it suits your faith better.
 

37818

Active Member
. . . no evidence.
The Hebrew scriptures and the Christian New Testament present themselves as history. And written history is a type evidence. Now if it is not believed to be true, for what ever reasons, does not change that those writings present themselves to have history. Written history is a type of evidence. So a claim of no evidence may not be true as you claim.
 

37818

Active Member
You're not disagreeing with a person, you're denying the conclusions of the best scientific explanations we have that are supported by all the available evidence. You're clinging nineteenth century physics because it suits your faith better.
Maybe. (I do not think so.) Give one specific examle. What I had said, and that example which shows I am not correct on that point. There are many issues being made. We need to deal with one.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Maybe. (I do not think so.)

It's also worth noting the relativity, as quantum mechanics, brings "first cause" into question as well. Time is internal to the universe, so even if time is finite in the past, it cannot have a cause in any normal sense. That's before we get to the basic logical errors of the first cause argument.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
Christians invented science, but the secular world stole it and bastardised it. That's why the world is so retarded and stuck in darkness and confusion.
Like I said, believe in conspiracy theories. A lot of Christians who prefer pseudoscience over science usually believe and feel the same way as you do, many times it's due to discovering that the great Christian scientists who they admire so much, were in fact, doing secular science and not pseudoscience.

Please provide evidence that USA stole science from Christians. It's ridiculous to think that a country with the majority of its population being Christians orchestrated a grand plan and stole science from themselves. :facepalm:
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The greatest scientists of all time have been Christians, so we don't need secular scientists for anything
No, some of the greatest scientists of all time have been atheists. By today's definition of atheist Einstein appears to have been one. Do you use GPS on your phone ever? Then thank Einstein.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The word reliable is entirely subjective, everyone has a different interpretation of what it means. So it should be removed from the English language and never mentioned again.
Not really. Reliable means that a wide spectrum of people will see that it is evidence. There will always be some deniers. Such as creationists that are even afraid to learn what is and what is not evidence since they can sense a trap and know deep down that they are wrong. But honest people have no problem admitting that something is evidence when presented. Circular reasoning is not evidence.
 
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