If Christianity is the truth then Judaism is also the truth

[Cooky]

What are you meaning by that?

I don't want to leave with a bad taste in my mouth. I need someone to fix this.

...I've just been told that my religion is comparable to blackface. That's humiliating to me and all my dead ancestors.

 

[Cooky]

I'll never be able to let this go, I'm just telling you... Probably it should be taken back.

 

[Batya]

I don't want to leave with a bad taste in my mouth. I need someone to fix this.

...I've just been told that my religion is comparable to blackface. That's humiliating to me and all my dead ancestors.

It is true that a lot of terrible things have been done in the name of christianity, from the crusades to the holocaust, but I would contend that that was definitely not true christianity. Horrible perverted christianity, but there have been and are many Christians who love the Jewish people.

 

[Cooky]

It is true that a lot of terrible things have been done in the name of christianity, from the crusades to the holocaust, but I would contend that that was definitely not true christianity. Horrible perverted christianity, but there have been and are many Christians who love the Jewish people.

The holocaust was done in the name of Christianity now too? And now my religion is comparable to blackface...

...I think a great friend and admirer, is now no more. Because all I feel is hate towards me.

Such a huge loss.

 

[Cooky]

...And nobody says a word. I've never felt so betrayed, having spent so many years defending the State of Israel, bragging about all the good food and concerts, and showing pictures, like it's a great place... Now I feel like it was all a big waste of time.

Because me and my ancestors are a joke. We're just like "blackface".

 

[Batya]

The holocaust was done in the name of Christianity now too? And now my religion is comparable to blackface...

...I think a great friend and admirer, is now no more. Because all I feel is hate towards me.

It has nothing to do with you personally, and I am sorry you feel hate.
Hitler claimed to be a Christian, and cited Luther's works in support of his hatred for the Jews. The government was largely in control of the church, which didn't help anything by reason of their twisted interpretations of the bible.
It was definitely not true Christianity. There were so- called Christians who killed and betrayed Jews, so I don't think it is for nothing that they feel that way. Many of the church fathers also were quite antisemitic, so christianity has its dark spots, but I don't think that is representative of how most Christians today feel, or how any true Christians have ever felt.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well, you've really caused me to think. I'll just say that much. I think the comments here have changed me as a person.

It would have been better had I never stumbled upon this thread... Because I feel totally rejected. And hurt. Permanently.

Please don't feel hurt. Despite the blow our egos might take, it is actually a wonderful thing when we learn something new. I myself have learned new things in here, and have had to admit I was mistaken. It's one of the things that makes this forum worth coming to.

Cooky, as a Jew, I reject many of your teachings. But I accept that you worship God and living a righteous life (or aspire to). In the end, that's what really counts. You really are a-okay in my book.

You should never be ashamed to be a Gentile. There is nothing wrong with Gentiles -- God loves you very much. Remember how God sent his own special prophet to the city of Ninevah, to help it repent and avoid judgment? That is how much God loves non-Jews. And be glad that you don't have 613 laws you are obligated to. Enjoy your bacon.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

...And nobody says a word. I've never felt so betrayed, having spent so many years defending the State of Israel, bragging about all the good food and concerts, and showing pictures, like it's a great place... Now I feel like it was all a big waste of time.

Because me and my ancestors are a joke. We're just like "blackface".

No one is saying that you and your ancestors are a joke. Far from it. We are just merely pointing out that you are not Jews, and that it is insulting to Jews when you say you are.

I think you are having an identity crisis. I see nothing for you to be ashamed of or feel bad in any way for. You simply have to rethink what your identity is.

 

[Cooky]

No one is saying that you and your ancestors are a joke. Far from it. We are just merely pointing out that you are not Jews, and that it is insulting to Jews when you say you are.

I think you are having an identity crisis. I see nothing for you to be ashamed of or feel bad in any way for. You simply have to rethink what your identity is.

I don't think I'm a Jew. I'm Catholic, of mixed European ancestry.

...It just seemed like you were saying all Christians considered themselves Jews, and that you felt that way, and didn't like Christianity because of it. Maybe I was misunderstanding what you were saying.

If that's the case, then I don't feel rejected as a friend.

 

[Cooky]

In case anyone didn’t know, Catholic means "universal"... And being part of the Universal Church means that it is open to the Gentiles, such as myself, as part of a new covenant with God.

...So it's definitely not a Catholic teaching that Catholics believe themselves to be Jews.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don't think I'm a Jew. I'm Catholic, of mixed European ancestry.

...It just seemed like you were saying all Christians considered themselves Jews, and that you felt that way, and didn't like Christianity because of it. Maybe I was misunderstanding what you were saying.

If that's the case, then I don't feel rejected as a friend.

Ah. It was someone else who said they, a Christian, were a Jew. It's sometimes hard for me to keep up with everyone in the conversation. Thanks for being so patient with me.

Yes, I know that most Christian groups have done an about face and turned their backs on Replacement Theology. It's a good development. It's rare to find a Christian these days who thinks they are "the true Jew," although it does happen more often online, for some reason.

The reasons I don't like Christianity are many, but the small number of Christians claiming to be the real Jews is very far down the list. At the top of the list is the fact that Christians worship a man. Second would be that Jesus was a false messiah. Third would be how the Christian scriptures mishandle quotations from the Tanakh, either quoting them out of context, mistranslating them, or making up whole verses that don't exist. Fourth would be the placing of emphasis on salvation via a list of beliefs, when God's revelation to Israel was obedience. That's a pretty good start.

Remember though, that although I dislike Christianity, does not mean I dislike YOU.

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

You self identify as Christian, rather than Messianic Judaism or Hebrew Roots. So I'm wondering what kind of church you attend that supports your insistence that you observe shatnez (making sure you don't have wool and linen in the same garment).

Just a curious question... Most wool suits uses linen as their thread for the button holes. How do you obtain a suit that doesn't do this?

My Church respects all of the OT laws and requirements, but we also know that it's not practical or necessary to observe all of them.
Our Sabbath day is Sunday, as we celebrate the day our Lord Jesus Christ rose from the dead. The Apostles started observing Sunday as the Lords day and we continue to do the same but we know that some of us must work on Sunday.
Our Doctor's don't leave a man to die, just because they have to attend Church. Just as Jesus said, should a man save his donkey if it falls into a well on the Sabbath.

Our Lord fulfilled every requirement and suffered every punishment for sin on our behalf, so Jehovah is not as strict as He was before Christs atonement. He forgives us for wearing garments, made of forbidden materials.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

My Church respects all of the OT laws and requirements, but we also know that it's not practical or necessary to observe all of them.
Our Sabbath day is Sunday, as we celebrate the day our Lord Jesus Christ rose from the dead. The Apostles started observing Sunday as the Lords day and we continue to do the same but we know that some of us must work on Sunday.
Our Doctor's don't leave a man to die, just because they have to attend Church. Just as Jesus said, should a man save his donkey if it falls into a well on the Sabbath.

Our Lord fulfilled every requirement and suffered every punishment for sin on our behalf, so Jehovah is not as strict as He was before Christs atonement. He forgives us for wearing garments, made of forbidden materials.

I can understand churches that say they do not need to observe the law (except those discussed in the NT). And I can understand those very few Christian groups that say they need to observe all 613. What I don't understand is those who pick and choose, as if the law were a buffet that you could take just what you like.

You may worship on Sunday because that is the day Jesus supposedly rose, I get that, but it is not the Sabbath. The commandment is to rest on the seventh day. Unless you are doing that, you are not keeping the Sabbath. And as you admit, you don't even require that everyone rest on Sunday, so it doesn't even look to me like you are trying. I don't say that to be snide. It just really looks that way to me.

You seem to have a misunderstanding about Judaism, so please allow me to inform you of what we actually believe. In Judaism, LIFE COMES FIRST. To preserve a life, we not only CAN break a law, we MUST break any law that stands in the way of saving someone. This is why you have Jewish doctors working in hospitals on the Shabbat.

God does not change. As many of my Christian friends have said to me, "He is the same yesterday, today, and forever." It is also true that the covenant between God and Abraham is "everlasting." That too is unchanging, then.

There are universal laws that everyone in the world is to follow. They are pretty obvious like, Don't murder, Don't steal, etc. The Law that was given to Israel at Sinai included those laws, but had many others besides. These additional laws are ONLY for Israel -- you as a non-Jew are not obligated to keep them. So for example, it is a sin for me to eat bacon, but you can eat bacon to your heart's content and not sin. It is a sin for me to labor on the seventh day, but for you, you can go out and mow your lawn, and it's fine. So enjoy your lobster.

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

I can understand churches that say they do not need to observe the law (except those discussed in the NT). And I can understand those very few Christian groups that say they need to observe all 613. What I don't understand is those who pick and choose, as if the law were a buffet that you could take just what you like.

You may worship on Sunday because that is the day Jesus supposedly rose, I get that, but it is not the Sabbath. The commandment is to rest on the seventh day. Unless you are doing that, you are not keeping the Sabbath. And as you admit, you don't even require that everyone rest on Sunday, so it doesn't even look to me like you are trying. I don't say that to be snide. It just really looks that way to me.

You seem to have a misunderstanding about Judaism, so please allow me to inform you of what we actually believe. In Judaism, LIFE COMES FIRST. To preserve a life, we not only CAN break a law, we MUST break any law that stands in the way of saving someone. This is why you have Jewish doctors working in hospitals on the Shabbat.

God does not change. As many of my Christian friends have said to me, "He is the same yesterday, today, and forever." It is also true that the covenant between God and Abraham is "everlasting." That too is unchanging, then.

There are universal laws that everyone in the world is to follow. They are pretty obvious like, Don't murder, Don't steal, etc. The Law that was given to Israel at Sinai included those laws, but had many others besides. These additional laws are ONLY for Israel -- you as a non-Jew are not obligated to keep them. So for example, it is a sin for me to eat bacon, but you can eat bacon to your heart's content and not sin. It is a sin for me to labor on the seventh day, but for you, you can go out and mow your lawn, and it's fine. So enjoy your lobster.

I'm not a Bible scholar or an expert on religions so I'm not in a position to debate you about the Sabbath or the 613 Jewish laws.
I recently converted from Roman Catholicism to Christianity so I have a lot to learn. My pastor does teach us to love the Jewish people as brothers. He said God promised to bless those who bless the Jews and curse those who curse you.
I'm not learned enough to answer all your questions, since this subject is not a priority for new Christians. I will ask my pastor to explain this to me on Sunday and I will get back to you with his answers.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm not a Bible scholar or an expert on religions so I'm not in a position to debate you about the Sabbath or the 613 Jewish laws.
I recently converted from Roman Catholicism to Christianity so I have a lot to learn. My pastor does teach us to love the Jewish people as brothers. He said God promised to bless those who bless the Jews and curse those who curse you.
I'm not learned enough to answer all your questions, since this subject is not a priority for new Christians. I will ask my pastor to explain this to me on Sunday and I will get back to you with his answers.

No problem, friend. I look forward to hearing back from you.

It is good to know that you have a positive outlook on Jews. Since the holocaust, most churches, both Catholic and most Protestant, have changed their outlook. We'll have some really nice chats.

In the meantime, it is helpful for the forum if you remember that Catholicism is also a Christian group. What you have done is converted to Protestantism (bible only, faith alone...). Much luck to you in your new church; I hope it will be everything you desire. May you grow ever closer to God.

 

[Cooky]

Ah. It was someone else who said they, a Christian, were a Jew. It's sometimes hard for me to keep up with everyone in the conversation. Thanks for being so patient with me.

Yes, I know that most Christian groups have done an about face and turned their backs on Replacement Theology. It's a good development. It's rare to find a Christian these days who thinks they are "the true Jew," although it does happen more often online, for some reason.

The reasons I don't like Christianity are many, but the small number of Christians claiming to be the real Jews is very far down the list. At the top of the list is the fact that Christians worship a man. Second would be that Jesus was a false messiah. Third would be how the Christian scriptures mishandle quotations from the Tanakh, either quoting them out of context, mistranslating them, or making up whole verses that don't exist. Fourth would be the placing of emphasis on salvation via a list of beliefs, when God's revelation to Israel was obedience. That's a pretty good start.

Remember though, that although I dislike Christianity, does not mean I dislike YOU.

While I no longer take it personally, I still disagree with your negative perceptions taking precedence over your view of Christianity as a whole. I see it as counter productive, and unhelpful, when instead, you could be looking for the positives.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I don't want to leave with a bad taste in my mouth. I need someone to fix this.

I'm not trying to convert you here, but this is my point of view: it may or may not be useful to you. So like I alluded to earlier in the thread, my view is that Biblical religions , though they are Great religions, are farther along the historical continuum of human spirituality than meets the eye. One thing you might notice, is that there are OT and NT passages that put taboos on things like divination, "witchcraft," seeing the future, being a "false prophet." In my opinion, a more direct connection with God or Gods is originally what characterized religion. So part of what makes European mythology so incredible, is that magic and divination seem a lot more normalized. And coupled with that, it is personally a weight off my shoulders to not always try and think of the world through a Biblical lens, though that is excellent as well, if you can figure out a good way.

 

[Cooky]

I'm not trying to convert you here, but this is my point of view: it may or may not be useful to you. So like I alluded to earlier in the thread, my view is that Biblical religions , though they are Great religions, are farther along the historical continuum of human spirituality than meets the eye. One thing you might notice, is that there are OT and NT passages that put taboos on things like divination, "witchcraft," seeing the future, being a "false prophet." In my opinion, a more direct connection with God or Gods is originally what characterized religion. So part of what makes European mythology so incredible, is that magic and divination seem a lot more normalized. And coupled with that, it is personally a weight off my shoulders to not always try and think of the world through a Biblical lens, though that is excellent as well, if you can figure out a good way.

What I like about you, is that you're not here to use your religion as a way to one-up someone else, and you're not criticizing people over their theology, which I see as *genuinely* friendly in tone. I admire that in you, and I find the video very interesting.

Also, I agree with you on the divination part. 100%.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

What I like about you, is that you're not here to use your religion as a way to one-up someone else, and you're not criticizing people over their theology, which I see as *genuinely* friendly in tone. I admire that in you

Well, I am guilty of sometimes doing that, but I doubt that it is ultimately positive. I am interested in debate, I think.. Increasingly however, I want to prove the other side of the debate right too. That way I won't feel bad if I vigorously defended a different idea, but moreover , there a multiple points of view for a reason. Different points of view need to be peopled, otherwise the world would go grey

 

[IndigoChild5559]

While I no longer take it personally, I still disagree with your negative perceptions taking precedence over your view of Christianity as a whole. I see it as counter productive, and unhelpful, when instead, you could be looking for the positives.

I think you need to accept the fact that not everyone is impressed with Christianity, even people very friendly with Christians.