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Is according to Jews everything God's will?

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
This has no bearing whatsoever on the topic at hand. Nor does it make sense.

The Pharisees rejecting Jesus had to do with their desires of the Messiah delivering them from Roman oppression. Michael Brown – Tough Questions Answered

For the last thousand years, religious Jews have often interpreted Isaiah 53 with reference to the people of Israel, but that has by no means been the consensus interpretation, and it is not the interpretation of the Talmudic rabbis. So, for example, the Targum interprets the passage with reference to the Messiah— as a warring, victorious king, even to the point of completely twisting the meaning of key verses — while the Talmud generally interprets the passage with reference to the Messiah, or key individuals (like Moses or Phineas), or the righteous. Note also that Sa‘adiah Gaon, the influential ninth-century Rabbinic leader, interpreted Isaiah 53 with reference to Jeremiah. This means that virtually without exception, the earliest traditional Jewish sources— and therefore the most authoritative Jewish sources— interpret Isaiah 52: 13– 53: 12 with reference to an individual, and in some cases, with reference to the Messiah.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The Pharisees rejecting Jesus had to do with their desires of the Messiah delivering them from Roman oppression. Michael Brown – Tough Questions Answered
Well, IF the messiah had come at THAT time, that is what the messiah would have done. Like I said, the main thing about the Messiah is that he will reign from jerusalem during the Messianic Era. You don't have that if the Romans are occupying the place.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
A judge having to be just with a criminal supports that the suffering servant is a Messiah who dies for the sins of people.
BTW, you replied before I finished my edit, so here are the verses I looked up for you:


Isaiah 41:8
“But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend,"

Isaiah 44:1
Israel the Chosen
“But now listen, Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen."

Isaiah 44:21
“Remember these things, Jacob, for you, Israel, are my servant. I have made you, you are my servant; Israel, I will not forget you.

Isaiah 45:4
For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not

He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Well, IF the messiah had come at THAT time, that is what the messiah would have done. Like I said, the main thing about the Messiah is that he will reign from jerusalem during the Messianic Era. You don't have that if the Romans are occupying the place.

Jesus will do that at his second coming. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

Some scholars have argued that the idea of two messiahs, one suffering and the second fulfilling the traditional messianic role, was normative to ancient Judaism, predating Jesus. Jesus would have been viewed by many as one or both.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
BTW, you replied before I finished my edit, so here are the verses I looked up for you:


Isaiah 41:8
“But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend,"

Isaiah 44:1
Israel the Chosen
“But now listen, Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen."

Isaiah 44:21
“Remember these things, Jacob, for you, Israel, are my servant. I have made you, you are my servant; Israel, I will not forget you.

Isaiah 45:4
For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not

He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”

God saying that Israel was his servant doesn't mean that Israel is the suffering servant mentioned in Isaiah 53.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
God saying that Israel was his servant doesn't mean that Israel is the suffering servant mentioned in Isaiah 53.
Yes it does. The rules for composition work in Isaiah just as they work in any other work of literature -- when a consistent metaphor is used throughout a piece of writing, it refers to the same thing.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Yes it does. The rules for composition work in Isaiah just as they work in any other work of literature -- when a consistent metaphor is used throughout a piece of writing, it refers to the same thing.

When Israel was suffering the nations weren't healed. Israel didn't pay for our iniquities or die for our sins. Israel wasn't punished willingly. God used other nations to judge them.

 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
When Israel was suffering the nations weren't healed. Israel didn't pay for our iniquities or die for our sins. Israel wasn't punished willingly. God used other nations to judge them.
It's not about Israel suffering for the nations. Its about the obedient faithful remnant of Israel suffering on behalf of Israel.

You say so many things that just don't plug in. the words non sequitur come to mind.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It's not about Israel suffering for the nations. Its about the obedient faithful remnant of Israel suffering on behalf of Israel.

You say so many things that just don't plug in. the words non sequitur come to mind.

The righteous remnant of that time, or the righteous remnant in the entire history of Israel? The righteous remnant in the entire history of Israel mirrors the Bible saying narrow is the way that leads to life and while the children of Israel are like the sand of the seashore only a remnant will be saved. Matthew 7:13-14

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Isaiah 10:22

For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It's not about Israel suffering for the nations. Its about the obedient faithful remnant of Israel suffering on behalf of Israel.

You say so many things that just don't plug in. the words non sequitur come to mind.

Israel didn't deliver the nations and Israel wasn't a man of sorrows.

 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It's not about Israel suffering for the nations. Its about the obedient faithful remnant of Israel suffering on behalf of Israel.

You say so many things that just don't plug in. the words non sequitur come to mind.

God's servant has a role having to do with Israel being chosen to make God known to the Gentiles. God chose the Jews through whom he would send Jesus-so that everyone would know of God. The servant was to make God known. The servant would enter into our suffering to remove the barrier of sin between God and people.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Israel didn't deliver the nations and Israel wasn't a man of sorrows.

You didn't read my post, or you would not have responded to something I didn't say. Please scroll back and try again.

Would you like me to link you to a Jewish YouTube video about Isaiah 53? Just wondering, cuz personally I hate it when people try to substitute videos for good writing.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
You didn't read my post, or you would not have responded to something I didn't say. Please scroll back and try again.

Would you like me to link you to a Jewish YouTube video about Isaiah 53? Just wondering, cuz personally I hate it when people try to substitute videos for good writing.

The discussion about the suffering servant and Israel being the faithful remnant
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The discussion about the suffering servant and Israel being the faithful remnant
This is not even a complete sentence. I have no idea what you are responding to or trying to say. Either you forgot the word "is," or there was more to add on to the end of the fragment.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
This is not even a complete sentence. I have no idea what you are responding to or trying to say. Either you forgot the word "is," or there was more to add on to the end of the fragment.

The suffering servant being the remnant doesn't make sense because the remnant is a not a person. Israel cannot be the suffering servant because in verse 49 who the servant is changes.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The suffering servant being the remnant doesn't make sense because the remnant is a not a person. Israel cannot be the suffering servant because in verse 49 who the servant is changes.
All throughout Isaiah, Israel is referred to as "my servant." Israel is often spoken of in the singular, i.e. that Israel is God's bride, etc. So there is no problem really with Isaiah 53 speaking in the singular.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
All throughout Isaiah, Israel is referred to as "my servant." Israel is often spoken of in the singular, i.e. that Israel is God's bride, etc. So there is no problem really with Isaiah 53 speaking in the singular.

There are details in the text, like the servant of God suffering, that hint that Israel is not the suffering servant. God used other nations to judge Israel. He allowed them to invade Israel as a consequence of their actions. They didn't suffer without measure or cause.

Who is God's Suffering Servant? The Rabbinic Interpretation of Isaiah 53 | Outreach Judaism

According to this widespread rabbinic opinion, Isaiah 53 contains a deeply moving narrative which world leaders will cry aloud in the messianic age. The humbled kings of nations (52: 15) will confess that Jewish suffering occurred as a direct result of “our own iniquity,” (53:5) e.g., depraved Jew-hatred, rather than, as they previously thought, the stubborn blindness of the Jews.

The stunned reaction of the world’s nations to the unexpected vindication and redemption of the Jewish nation in the messianic age is a recurring theme throughout the Hebrew Scriptures.4 Israel’s neighbors will be amazed when their age-old assessment of the Jew is finally proven wrong. Throughout Israel’s long and bitter exile, the nations mistakenly attributed the miserable predicament of the Jew to his stubborn rejection of the world’s religions. In the End of Days, however, the gentiles will discover what was until then unimaginable – the unwavering Jew was, in fact, all this time faithful to the one true God. On the other hand, “We despised and held him of no account” (53:3).

In essence, the final and complete redemption of the Jews, to which the stunned nations will bear witness, contradicts everything Israel’s gentile neighbors had ever previously anticipated, heard, or considered (52:15). “Who would have believed our report?” the kings will ask with their mouths wide open in amazement (53:1). The curtain of blindness is finally lifted when the “holy Arm of the Lord before the eyes of all the nations, all the ends of the earth will witness the salvation of His people” (52:10).

The unanticipated vindication of the Jews in the End of Days, however, will raise nagging, introspective questions for Israel’s neighbors: How then can we explain the Jews’ long-enduring suffering at our own hands? After all, the age-old reasons we contrived to explain away Israel’s agony are clearly no longer valid. Who is to blame for Israel’s miserable existence in exile? In short, why did the servant of God seem to suffer without measure or cause?
 
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