Christianity needs parts of Judaism to have been true. If the whole thing were true - including the Jewish criteria for the Messiah - Christianity would be in trouble.
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If Christianity is the truth then Judaism is also the truth
- Thread starter Starlight
- Start date
Batya
Always Forward
Christianity is in trouble, at least modern mainstream christianity. I'm not defending everything about Judaism, but our beliefs need to line up with the bible, and much of christianity today doesn't. Also I think there are some major weaknesses (in christianity) in regard to understanding Yeshua as the messiah.
IMO, Christianity has nothing to do with Judaism. Judaism has nothing to do with Christianity.
Christianity created a narrative about Judaism which really has nothing to do with the actual religion in order to support its own narrative.
Whatever "truth" Judaism does or does not possess is irrelevant to Christianity since Christianity created its own "truth" about Judaism.
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
What if it's supposed to be wrong?
The story goes that one day Moses was told that all of Israel would be destroyed, but Moses pleaded for them not to be. Then they were rescued because of his argument, but from this they learned they could be replaced. Christians, similarly, have been threatened, told in the book Revelation that our light can be taken away. Judaism therefore cannot hang upon Christianity nor Christianity upon Judaism. Either one can be wiped away and replaced.
Batya
Always Forward
That's not exactly correct, YHWH's people are His forever because of the covenant He made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Israel will never be wiped away or replaced.
Dave Watchman
Active Member
That sounds not bad.
So Christianity has the latest Biblical update.
The hot off the press version.
There's truth to be found in all of them.
Each of the seven belief systems contain some of God's People.
Even if they don't yet know it.
My read on the Revelation is that at a point in time, all religions will become corrupt, and will culminate with the 8th king. The mother of harlots, Lucifer's theocratic government.
I think we're very near that point now.
It's why I put Waldensian, instead of Christian, as my choice of religion.
Those who keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus.
To the point of death.
It's like what Audie said:
I like that she capitalized "Bible."
Christianity was the one that "is" when John spoke to the angel in 95AD.
Judaism had already joined up with the five that had fallen, been proved false, by Jesus' birth, death and resurrection.
Baha'i was probably the one not yet come, but would only stay for a short time.
Everyone on the planet belongs to one of these seven heads on the composite beast from Revelation 13.
Each of them having a blasphemous name written on them.
Let God be true and I am a liar.
Peaceful Sabbath.
Actually this is misleading due to the intent of the gospels to vindicate the Romans as responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus. It is terribly unlikely that Rome would defer to the Jews for being responsible for Jesus conviction, because the crime is rebellion against Rome. The contradiction is that crucifixion is the Roman penalty for rebellion against Rome. Jesus was accused of rebellion against Rome by claiming to be the King of the Jews. If the Jews convicted Jesus he would have been stoned to death,
All I can say is that the story is in Deuteronomy chapter 9 in my translated text. I have also seen commentary by scholars about it, so they admit its legitimate. Surely it can't be denied that (in the story) this threat was put forward, that the entire thing could have been restarted with Moses, alone? I can't say for sure if Moses could have been replaced, but it seems to be the general gist that he also could have been replaced. I'm not going to say I've heard anyone comment on that point, except later on Jesus; but I have a feeling Jesus isn't the first to hold this point of view. If everybody except Moses can be replaced, then probably Moses can, too; and probably anybody can.
Add Jesus to that and in Christianity its pretty official that anybody or any group of anybody's has got no permanent status and can be replaced. Jesus claims rocks can be turned into sons for Abraham. Maybe I'm taking his comment in the wrong way? Maybe not.
Audie
Veteran Member
This device autocorrects
I have to force it to do lower case on "bible ".
Its kind of like one has to force the bible to be
"true".
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I agree. Judaism laid the foundation for al the other Abrahamic religions. Without Judaism, Christianity would have no foundation. The same applies to Islam and the Baha'i Faith. Without the religions that preceded them , they would have no foundation. Religions lay the foundation for the religions that come later, just like earlier chapters in a book lay the foundation for the next chapter..
Audie
Veteran Member
Dave Watchman
Active Member
But they were afraid of the backlash from the rest of Israel that did follow Jesus.
Your story sounds good if you were a lawyer trying to argue a case to get the Jews off. But they had their chance to redeem the 70 weeks. If they would have accepted their Messiah, the NT may not have ever been written. How He would have loved to gather them as a hen gathers it's chicks. But they missed the time of their Visitation.
It sounded to me like "Rome" was trying to let Him go.
It sounded to me like Pontius Pilate, a governor of the Roman Empire, was the one who pronounced Him the "King of the Jews."
“Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews.
Over two Chapters of John 18 and 19, Pilate was trying to let Him go.
“I find no basis for a charge against him.
But they weren't going to give up.
"Once more Pilate came out and said to the Jews gathered there, “Look, I am bringing him out to you to let you know that I find no basis for a charge against him.”
And again:
"As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”
"But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”
"But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”
And again:
"The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”
"When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, and he went back inside the palace. “Where do you come from?”
"When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, and he went back inside the palace. “Where do you come from?”
Even after all that, Pilate still tries to make an out for Him:
"From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jewish leaders kept shouting, “If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar.
“Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews.
Again:
"But they shouted, “Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!”
And again:
“Shall I crucify your king?” Pilate asked.
And again:
“We have no king but Caesar,” the chief priests answered.
"Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.
"Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.
Rome was the mechanism, but the Old Time Jews were the hand inside the glove.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I agree both Judaism and Christianity can be true at the same time and that God can have different covenants with different people, but the following cannot both be true because they are contradictory:
Christianity: Jesus is the Messiah
Judaism: Jesus is not the Messiah
So either the Jews have to accept Jesus as the Messiah or Christians have to admit that Jesus was not the Messiah in order to resolve the conflict.
Dave Watchman
Active Member
I think you're just trying to be clever.
Or witty.
My device goes the other way.
Do me a favor Audie?
Try it with the Torah.
And the Koran.
And the Kitáb-i-Aqdas
See if you can force those ones to be true too.
74x12
Well-Known Member
True, but there is a difference between modern Judaism which is Talmudic Judaism and ancient Judaism. The Talmud wasn't really written until the middle ages. It's a collection of writings and opinions of various rabbis and how they think the Torah should be interpreted. To modern Judaism the Talmud is just as important and even more important than the Torah.
But remember that God gave the Torah and the whole Bible by prophets who prophesied. (2 Peter 1:21) If you want to understand the Bible then ... do you go to rabbi's Talmud or do you seek for the gift of the Spirit so you can understand the scriptures? (John 15:26, John 16:13) The same Spirit that the prophets had.
Audie
Veteran Member
I'm sure they have enough people trying
their best. I read the bible and got part way through the book of mormon.
Thats more than enough moldy nonsense for me.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Nobody has to "force" them to be true.