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Political Neutrality Please! (I mean my brothers and sisters)

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
Christianity better be neutral on politics.


Jesus wasn’t a politician either, I think.

Christians should focus on evangelizing and doing social work (or both), as I see it. Politics, as I see, is a distraction. Christians should focus of what they are good at.


Especially after Donald Trump turned out to have a dubious stance on democracy, Christians should learn from that and stop openly favoring one party only.

In Germany, churches have supported Hitler in many cases and Christians should learn their lessons from it.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Jesus was a political figure though. He stood aghast at the system. He led a loyal party of idealists striving for spirituality and moral living. That’s taking a political stance, like it or not.
Granted I do agree that when Christianity becomes politicised it strays away from Jesus’ teachings, imo
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Christianity better be neutral on politics.


Jesus wasn’t a politician either, I think.

Christians should focus on evangelizing and doing social work (or both), as I see it. Politics, as I see, is a distraction. Christians should focus of what they are good at.


Especially after Donald Trump turned out to have a dubious stance on democracy, Christians should learn from that and stop openly favoring one party only.

In Germany, churches have supported Hitler in many cases and Christians should learn their lessons from it.
As I see it, whenever politics and religion got mixed, it corrupted both religion and politics. There might have been some initial benefits but in the long run both gave up main principles to maintain the union.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
He led a loyal party of idealists striving for spirituality and moral living. That’s taking a political stance, like it or not.
I disagree with this. Below is how I see it.

* I agree that "Jesus led a loyal party of idealists striving for spirituality and moral living is taking a political stance" seems to be true
* Spirituality and moral living need not be "taking a political stance" though

But is there real evidence that Jesus was like that, or is this what the books tell us, books written by people who are prone to make errors? Some people on RF agree that not all Bible verses need to be facts. So, if the Bible is doubted by some, should we take other 2000 year old historical facts to be true?

Another thing also important in regard to this issue:
Even on RF some people sometimes claim to know better how I feel and what I do or should do. How much more could this not have been the case with Jesus? After all on RF it happened almost immediately, but in the case of Jesus we talk about 2000 years ago. How much of so called facts can we really call facts after 2000 years, especially about how Jesus felt inside while doing what he did. Because it's how you feel/think what makes you "take a political stance". And that is very difficult to determine for another person esp. after 2000 years AND even more so when the other is at a much higher spiritual level.

It's already difficult to process and know all our own emotions let alone the thoughts and emotions of a Spiritual Master like Jesus
@stvdvRF
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
In America, Evangelicalism has tended to cycle between periods of political engagement, and periods of political indifference. The current period of engagement began with the election of Jimmy Carter in the later part of the 1970s.

If you lived through it, as I did, it was quite interesting. All those people who a year before would have nothing to do with politics, suddenly talking about it non-stop, and of course, voting.

They cycles are long ones. But that's been the pattern, and if the pattern holds true, then someday the vast majority of Evangelicals will once again shun politics to avoid becoming spiritually corrupted by worldly power.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I disagree with this.

* I agree that "Jesus led a loyal party of idealists striving for spirituality and moral living is taking a political stance" seems to be true
* Spirituality and moral living need not be "taking a political stance" though

But is there real evidence that Jesus was like that, or is this what the books tell us, books written by people who are prone to make errors? Some people on RF agree that not all Bible verses need to be facts. So, if Bible is doubted by some, should we take other 2000 year old historical facts to be true?

Another thing also important in regard to this issue:
Even on RF some people sometimes claim to know better how I feel and what I do or should do. How much more could this not have been the case with Jesus? After all on RF it happened almost immediately, but in the case of Jesus we talk about 2000 years ago. How much of so called facts can we really call facts after 2000 years, especially about how Jesus felt inside while doing what he did. Because it's how you feel/think what makes you "take a political stance". And that is very difficult to determine for another person esp. after 2000 years AND even more so when the other is at a much higher spiritual level.

It's already difficult to process and know all our own emotions let alone the thoughts and emotions of a Spiritual Master like Jesus
@stvdvRF
I don’t mean that living a moral life is a political stance.
I mean that the act of literally separating yourself from society is taking a political stance. You’re saying that the system is not working for you. A lot of zealous religions do that. As is their right.
And Jesus and his followers did that to a certain extent.
Jesus did say to pay your taxes basically, so he wasn’t completely abandoning governmental responsibilities (although curiously Churches are often given tax exemption status.)


I’m going by the portrayal of Jesus as described in the Bible and as preached to me by His followers. I do not presume to know his motives or inner thoughts, I go by his actions. Is that not a fair way of assessing a person?
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I totally understand that @thomas t .
The truth is that politically we Europeans have created a juridical civilization which is based upon Biblical principles. These principles enabled us to create a secular legislation that defends all religions and all ideologies, (including atheism, deism, rationalism, agnosticism).
So I think it is not unchristian to be politically involved. With parties which want to preserve the Christian roots of Europe, since so many globalist parties want to annihilate these roots.

Also considering that there are areas of the world where atheists are silenced, persecuted and imprisoned.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
In America, Evangelicalism has tended to cycle between periods of political engagement, and periods of political indifference. The current period of engagement began with the election of Jimmy Carter in the later part of the 1970s.

If you lived through it, as I did, it was quite interesting. All those people who a year before would have nothing to do with politics, suddenly talking about it non-stop, and of course, voting.

They cycles are long ones. But that's been the pattern, and if the pattern holds true, then someday the vast majority of Evangelicals will once again shun politics to avoid becoming spiritually corrupted by worldly power.
For example, JFK was not Evangelical and as far as I know he used to defend principles like social justice, civil rights, minorities' rights...etc.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I don’t mean that living a moral life is a political stance.
IMO:

Yes, I did understand that you did not mean that. So, I put this line second, and the agree line first.

I think living moral life could maybe even be political. For example Gandhi. Moral life as in non violence, but he did use it politically. Exhibition non violence as I may say. Though, I am not saying that political stance is bad, or good for that matter. This is just my observation. Can be wrong.

I mean that the act of literally separating yourself from society is taking a political stance. You’re saying that the system is not working for you. A lot of zealous religions do that. As is their right.
I agree that this happens, though I see this a little more nuanced. In the West some people indeed do this, separating themselves from society, because the system is not working for them; usually they exhibit their view also But there are also people, who choose to meditate; not telling others what they choose is wrong, just another interest. They could be in society as well. Both choices work for them just fine.

"To Be or Not To Be" in society. Without judgment into good/bad (working well for them or not). Some eat apples, others eat bananas

I’m going by the portrayal of Jesus as described in the Bible and as preached to me by His followers. I do not presume to know his motives or inner thoughts, I go by his actions. Is that not a fair way of assessing a person?
Of course that is a fair way of assessing a person. That is all we have. But I know that a Master can act without any thought, and then your reasoning does not work. That is all I tried to explain. For normal people, with a crazy, usual monkey mind, I fully agree with you. Bhagavad Gita explains this difference quite detailed.

That is even the essence of the Bhagavad Gita, as I have understood it:
"Be in the world, but don't be (slave) of the world (don't be attached to this material world)"
(Note: this is an advise for those who want to grow spiritual or just want to be happy. Again not a judgment if you choose not to accept this advice)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Christianity better be neutral on politics.


Jesus wasn’t a politician either, I think.

Christians should focus on evangelizing and doing social work (or both), as I see it. Politics, as I see, is a distraction. Christians should focus of what they are good at.


Especially after Donald Trump turned out to have a dubious stance on democracy, Christians should learn from that and stop openly favoring one party only.

In Germany, churches have supported Hitler in many cases and Christians should learn their lessons from it.
So:

- helping people in need: acceptable.
- trying to create the conditions so that people aren't in need in the first place: not acceptable.

o_O

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist."

- Hélder Câmara
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
So:

- helping people in need: acceptable.
- trying to create the conditions so that people aren't in need in the first place: not acceptable.

o_O

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist."

- Hélder Câmara
I think you can compare it like this: after having ridden a motorbike and having had a major accident that you’re respinsible for…, it’s time to quite riding the motorbike. Even if the motorbike in and of itself is not a bad vehicle. I'm convinced you even can do good with a motorbike.

Many Christians keep claiming that it’s a big blessing when Christians gather to engage in politics.

However, Christians do not claim the same when they gather to be carpenters. And you can also minister as a carpenter.
Actually, noone claims Christians to be the better craftsmen. Not even the Christians themselves. But when it comes to politics, everything is supposed to be different in the eyes of the Christians... and the Christians are said to be the big blessing? From my experience, they often see themselves as the big blessing in this field.

When you tell them now: engage in poltics, Christians! The first thing they will come up with is the thought that they are the big blessing in this field... and everyone needs them so badly. In politics.

However, this time it went terribly wrong. They ended up supporting a dude that lacks respect for basic democratic standards. So now, it’s time to humble down and leave politics please. No more blessings from Christian right-wing politics, please.

I’m speaking of evangelical Christians and their surroundings. People from the mainline churches somehow behaved in a smarter way, I think.

This is definitely not an American problem.
Evangelicals in Germany largely supported Hitler, as can be seen here https://www.eh-tabor.de/sites/default/files/wissenschaftliche_arbeiten/bruederhaus_tabor_ns_zeit.pdf , see page 2 (it’s a source in German language from a major evangelical church in Germany, the Gnadauer Gemeinschaftsverband), the most important phrase being:

Politisch stand er in den zwanziger Jahren wie die meisten Leiter aus dem konservativ-kirchlichen Spektrum der DNVP nahe, [...]

In English:

Like most church leaders from the conservative church background they supported the DNVP [which was a right wing party that supported Hitler, added mine].
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
When you tell them now: engage in poltics, Christians! The first thing they will come up with is the thought that they are the big blessing in this field... and everyone needs them so badly. In politics.

However, this time it went terribly wrong. They ended up supporting a dude that lacks respect for basic democratic standards. So now, it’s time to humble down and leave politics please. No more blessings from Christian right-wing politics, please.
This is about Trump? I see.

Yes, Evangelical Christianity has a lot to answer for. However, when there's a group participating in politics unethically, I see the "unethically" part as a bigger problem than the "participating in politics" part.

Keep in mind that the "evangelizing and social work" that you're asking Evangelicals to do is fraught with all sorts of ethical problems, too. You don't have to participate in politics to do great harm.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
This is about Trump? I see.

Yes, Evangelical Christianity has a lot to answer for. However, when there's a group participating in politics unethically, I see the "unethically" part as a bigger problem than the "participating in politics" part.

Keep in mind that the "evangelizing and social work" that you're asking Evangelicals to do is fraught with all sorts of ethical problems, too. You don't have to participate in politics to do great harm.
let's take social work.
Christians are well organized to help, I think.
They come in large groups, so that's a perfect place to integrate refugees, for example. Or all other sorts of people in danger of deprivation.
So when it comes to social work, they have an advantage they can profit from.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
They cycles are long ones. But that's been the pattern, and if the pattern holds true, then someday the vast majority of Evangelicals will once again shun politics to avoid becoming spiritually corrupted by worldly power.
That could stop or even reverse the rise of atheism. The religious-political nutjobs are one of the best recruiting reasons.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
let's take social work.
Christians are well organized to help, I think.
They come in large groups, so that's a perfect place to integrate refugees, for example. Or all other sorts of people in danger of deprivation.
So when it comes to social work, they have an advantage they can profit from.
If that was all they did it might be fine, but there are stories upon stories of Christians doing social work turning away LGBTQ people, or using their power over vulnerable people to victimize them, or other abuses.

Instead of calling on Christians to get out of politics, why not call in them to conduct themselves morally and ethically, whatever they do?
 
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