Speaking in tongues! Whats the argument for and against?

[firedragon]

I llok forward to reading it

Me too really.

But a study like that would need an error margin of less than 5%, so a large sample size needs to be taken based on a snowball method. Maybe 2200 samples. But I am not too sure of that, maybe it should be based on a stratified method. I dont know.

 

[74x12]

One day I saw one Christian preacher guy discussing with an Atheist in a street on the existence of God. Honestly, this Atheist guy knew the Bible quite well. I mean he is obviously no scholar but seemed to know better than this Christian preacher, though in his thirties and part of a church movement.

Anyway, suddenly this guy suddenly started saying things in a strange language. "Kadooshkma" was what I picked up. He said that several times, then said something absolutely strange to my ears. It was the Holy Spirit, and he claims "he was speaking in tongues".

This belief in "speaking in tongues" comes from a well known verse in the Gospel of Mark and comes from what we call "the long ending of Mark".

He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

The above verses and the surrounding story of Jesus going to his 11 disciples were human innovations not contained in the old manuscripts (Mark, chapter 16, verses 9-20). To put it crudely, its a forged verse.

Now whats the argument?

1. Is he pretending?
2. Does he really believe he is speaking in tongues?
3. Is it the placebo effect?
4. Is it the "also ran" syndrome? Crowd mentality?

Anyother explanation?

Impossible to know if he was pretending. Many do pretend but that doesn't mean it's not also a legitimate experience for many. Just look how many pretend to be what they are not.

I spoke in tongues myself. It is a real experience. I know it was the holy Spirit.

But there are also demonic tongues. Demons can possess people and speak in other languages and even allow people who are possessed to understand languages they shouldn't know.

So the key thing with tongues is to know what you're talking about and have discernment.

 

[dybmh]

"glossolalists seem to display lower rates of depression (Spanos and Hewitt, 1979), less neuroticism, and higher emotional stability as compared to non-glossolalists with a similar cultural and religious background (Francis and Robbins, 2003)"

Attribution of Mental States in Glossolalia: A Direct Comparison With Schizophrenia

 

[Jainarayan]

It’s called glossolalia in linguistics, and it is about as real as the riot staged by rainbow unicorns and feathered bunnies at Grand Central Terminal.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Anyother explanation?

The limited minds of men and their perceptions of righteous worship.

I had to walk out of a church service when people started doing this.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Anyother explanation?

If you are interested, Abdu'lbaha was asked the question as to what it meant to speak in tounges.

I put the reply under a spoiler so only those that choose will read it.

Spoiler: Speaking in Tongues

The meaning is that the Apostles taught in a spiritual tongue, a tongue that embraces all tongues. For the Word of the Kingdom comprises spiritual meanings and divine mysteries, and whoso attains to this Word will find the realities and mysteries of creation to be clear and evident. The divine inner meanings are the all-encompassing reality of all tongues.

3Therefore, the Holy Spirit endowed the Apostles with the tongue of the Kingdom, and they spoke with all peoples as if in their own tongue; that is, whenever they conversed with a person of any faith or nation, it was as though they were speaking his own tongue. Were it otherwise, there are at present more than a thousand known languages and it would be fair to expect that the Apostles would have written at least one Gospel in the language of one of the other nations. It is, however, well established that the Gospel was written only in Hebrew and in Greek. No Gospel was even written in Latin, though that was at the time the official language of the land. Yet, as the Apostles were not proficient in Latin, no Gospel was written in that language.

Regards Tony

 

[Gargovic Malkav]

I regularly "speak in tongues". But I do it deliberately and don't really add much spiritual significance to it.
I do it because it can have a soothing effect on me. It's also good fun to surprise others with because I can make it sound like I'm speaking an actual language.

 

[InChrist]

One day I saw one Christian preacher guy discussing with an Atheist in a street on the existence of God. Honestly, this Atheist guy knew the Bible quite well. I mean he is obviously no scholar but seemed to know better than this Christian preacher, though in his thirties and part of a church movement.

Anyway, suddenly this guy suddenly started saying things in a strange language. "Kadooshkma" was what I picked up. He said that several times, then said something absolutely strange to my ears. It was the Holy Spirit, and he claims "he was speaking in tongues".

This belief in "speaking in tongues" comes from a well known verse in the Gospel of Mark and comes from what we call "the long ending of Mark".

He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

The above verses and the surrounding story of Jesus going to his 11 disciples were human innovations not contained in the old manuscripts (Mark, chapter 16, verses 9-20). To put it crudely, its a forged verse.

Now whats the argument?

1. Is he pretending?
2. Does he really believe he is speaking in tongues?
3. Is it the placebo effect?
4. Is it the "also ran" syndrome? Crowd mentality?

Anyother explanation?

Speaking in tongues according to the biblical scriptures is to speak in a known language which must then be interpreted to have any value or legitimacy in spreading or sharing the Gospel.
In my view, speaking in gibberish that has no meaning or that cannot be interpreted is either psychological delusion or demonic delusion.

 

[Samael_Khan]

It doesnt say "new tongues". Just "tongues". Also you should note that it speaks of several things that pious believers would be capable of doing. Its like drinking poison and surviving. So it is basically a miracle.

I was going according to the translation you used in your OP which says "new tongues". Yes, they would be miracles. In Acts, the believers miraculously were able to speak foreign languages.

In other verses, it is not shown as a sign of piety, and miracle working faith like drinking poison with no effect. Please read the verses with their context, and the linguistics I have given you already.

Who else does 1 Corinthians say that the gifts are given to besides those in the Body of Christ? The Body consists of believers does it not? The gifts also would be miracle working faith. I think that the difference here is that the miracle working faith in Mark are really objective miracles, like growing a hand back, whereas 1 Corinthians is classing things that are more ordinary in the miracle category.

What I find strange is that in the epistles I do not see any mention of people picking up snakes and drinking poison. If it was such a big deal as Jesus said, why wouldn't there be mention of it as an everyday thing by Paul and Peter and the rest. Nobody seems to be showing those two signs. Odd.

Yes. Jim Jones episode was world record. Just imagine 300 plus children dying in vain due to a belief in a forged verse!!

Yeah, and the children were forced to drink. The sad thing is that they actually practiced this drinking of poison multiple times. Some people thought it was just another drill. Another sad thing is that Jim Jones started off as a fairly OK guy who was respected and then, possibly because of disease, the guy degenerated into a madman. And people still followed him.

Nevertheless, I dont think anyone has done a Sociological study done on the sociology behind the followers of something like this. And above, quintessence has actually given a path to take in this matter. I am gonna suggest to a friend of mine honestly.

Well there has been indepth research into Jim Jones and other dangerous cults for decades. I even have a book comparing Jim Jones, Branch Davidians, Thuggee and other dangerous cults and the similarities are glaringly obvious.

I like Quintessences reply too. There is a stigma behind speaking in tongues. From what I know the concept was around before Christianity, as it is a common Voodoo practice as well, and we all know how Voodoo is perceived in the West..

 

[firedragon]

I was going according to the translation you used in your OP which says "new tongues". Yes, they would be miracles. In Acts, the believers miraculously were able to speak foreign languages.

You are right. That translation is wrong.

 

[PruePhillip]

One day I saw one Christian preacher guy discussing with an Atheist in a street on the existence of God. Honestly, this Atheist guy knew the Bible quite well. I mean he is obviously no scholar but seemed to know better than this Christian preacher, though in his thirties and part of a church movement.

Anyway, suddenly this guy suddenly started saying things in a strange language. "Kadooshkma" was what I picked up. He said that several times, then said something absolutely strange to my ears. It was the Holy Spirit, and he claims "he was speaking in tongues".

This belief in "speaking in tongues" comes from a well known verse in the Gospel of Mark and comes from what we call "the long ending of Mark".

He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

The above verses and the surrounding story of Jesus going to his 11 disciples were human innovations not contained in the old manuscripts (Mark, chapter 16, verses 9-20). To put it crudely, its a forged verse.

Now whats the argument?

1. Is he pretending?
2. Does he really believe he is speaking in tongues?
3. Is it the placebo effect?
4. Is it the "also ran" syndrome? Crowd mentality?

Anyother explanation?

I have no idea what you are talking about with 'forged verse', it you go down that path the while bible is 'forget verse.'
But sure, we read of the disciples speaking in tongues - the languages those men spoke in were listed. If I am English
but speak Greek, I am 'speaking in tongue.'

 

[firedragon]

I have no idea what you are talking about with 'forged verse', it you go down that path the while bible is 'forget verse.'
But sure, we read of the disciples speaking in tongues - the languages those men spoke in were listed. If I am English
but speak Greek, I am 'speaking in tongue.'

I gave the Reference.

 

[PruePhillip]

One day I saw one Christian preacher guy discussing with an Atheist in a street on the existence of God. Honestly, this Atheist guy knew the Bible quite well. I mean he is obviously no scholar but seemed to know better than this Christian preacher, though in his thirties and part of a church movement.

Anyway, suddenly this guy suddenly started saying things in a strange language. "Kadooshkma" was what I picked up. He said that several times, then said something absolutely strange to my ears. It was the Holy Spirit, and he claims "he was speaking in tongues".

This belief in "speaking in tongues" comes from a well known verse in the Gospel of Mark and comes from what we call "the long ending of Mark".

He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

The above verses and the surrounding story of Jesus going to his 11 disciples were human innovations not contained in the old manuscripts (Mark, chapter 16, verses 9-20). To put it crudely, its a forged verse.

Now whats the argument?

1. Is he pretending?
2. Does he really believe he is speaking in tongues?
3. Is it the placebo effect?
4. Is it the "also ran" syndrome? Crowd mentality?

Anyother explanation?

People who 'speak in tongues' are distantly related to those who claim to know ancient Greek,
Hebrew and Aramaic, and who shut you down because you "don't understand" what you are
talking about in regards to scripture. "God is not the author of confusion." The language of those
who love God is clarity, grace, love, compassion and no hint of being self-centered.

 

[firedragon]

People who 'speak in tongues' are distantly related to those who claim to know ancient Greek,
Hebrew and Aramaic, and who shut you down because you "don't understand" what you are
talking about in regards to scripture. "God is not the author of confusion." The language of those
who love God is clarity, grace, love, compassion and no hint of being self-centered.

Thats all good mate. I am not referring to a specific thing, and is in the OP.

 

[Valjean]

I understand. Thanks for that explanation.

But is it real? Is it not based on a forged verse?

Could it be the placebo effect?

Linguists who've studied this report that it's not a language, just strings of syllables utilizing the same phonetics and patterns as the speaker's native language.

In religious context it's an ecstatic trance phenomenon, usually interpreted as a form of divine possession.

In music, though, it can be pretty cool:

 

[firedragon]

Linguists who've studied this report that it's not a language, just strings of syllables utilizing the same phonetics and patterns as the speaker's native language.

In religious context it's an ecstatic trance phenomenon, usually interpreted as a form of divine possession.

In music, though, it can be pretty cool:

Please provide a reference to these linguists. It would be an interesting read.

 

[Valjean]

Please provide a reference to these linguists. It would be an interesting read.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/tongues5.htm
The Neurocritic: Glossolalia
Speaking in Tongues – A Neural Snapshot
Speaking In Tongues: The Language And Practice Of Glossolalia

And there's always Wiki: Speaking in tongues - Wikipedia

 

[Redemptionsong]

One day I saw one Christian preacher guy discussing with an Atheist in a street on the existence of God. Honestly, this Atheist guy knew the Bible quite well. I mean he is obviously no scholar but seemed to know better than this Christian preacher, though in his thirties and part of a church movement.

Anyway, suddenly this guy suddenly started saying things in a strange language. "Kadooshkma" was what I picked up. He said that several times, then said something absolutely strange to my ears. It was the Holy Spirit, and he claims "he was speaking in tongues".

This belief in "speaking in tongues" comes from a well known verse in the Gospel of Mark and comes from what we call "the long ending of Mark".

He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

The above verses and the surrounding story of Jesus going to his 11 disciples were human innovations not contained in the old manuscripts (Mark, chapter 16, verses 9-20). To put it crudely, its a forged verse.

Now whats the argument?

1. Is he pretending?
2. Does he really believe he is speaking in tongues?
3. Is it the placebo effect?
4. Is it the "also ran" syndrome? Crowd mentality?

Anyother explanation?

I don't believe Mark 16:9-20 are forged verses, as these verses are found in the Received Greek text. It was not an accident that they were included in the AV of 1611.

The verses of Mark 16 correspond to all that Paul teaches in his later epistles.

1 Corinthians 12:7-11. 'But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
But all these worketh that the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.'

Alongside the manifestations of power, the Spirit also provides 'fruits':
Galatians 5:22. 'But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.'

From my own experience, speaking in tongues is primarily for private prayer. When used in public, it is meant to be accompanied by interpretation. Or, in some circumstances people join together to sing in tongues as a glorification of God.

I remain convinced that the true Church should be walking by the power of the Holy Spirit. It speaks volumes that the spiritual power of Christianity is now questioned with such hostility. This, IMO, is just part of an attempt to erode that power, the power of love, that most impacts the forces of evil.

Let's not forget that all the powers (and fruits) of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, were given by God for the purpose of extending His kingdom on Earth.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There are some people who argue "for" this. I have heard some of them, but sometimes members of this forum bring very interesting and new perspectives.

I would like to see them.

Hi dragon. You said you would like to see some other views about this so here’s what Abdul-Baha has said.


1QUESTION: WHAT IS meant by the Apostles’ speaking in tongues?

2Answer: The meaning is that the Apostles taught in a spiritual tongue, a tongue that embraces all tongues. For the Word of the Kingdom comprises spiritual meanings and divine mysteries, and whoso attains to this Word will find the realities and mysteries of creation to be clear and evident. The divine inner meanings are the all-encompassing reality of all tongues.

3Therefore, the Holy Spirit endowed the Apostles with the tongue of the Kingdom, and they spoke with all peoples as if in their own tongue; that is, whenever they conversed with a person of any faith or nation, it was as though they were speaking his own tongue. Were it otherwise, there are at present more than a thousand known languages and it would be fair to expect that the Apostles would have written at least one Gospel in the language of one of the other nations. It is, however, well established that the Gospel was written only in Hebrew and in Greek. No Gospel was even written in Latin, though that was at the time the official language of the land. Yet, as the Apostles were not proficient in Latin, no Gospel was written in that language. (Abdul-Baha)

 

[Clara Tea]

One day I saw one Christian preacher guy discussing with an Atheist in a street on the existence of God. Honestly, this Atheist guy knew the Bible quite well. I mean he is obviously no scholar but seemed to know better than this Christian preacher, though in his thirties and part of a church movement.

Anyway, suddenly this guy suddenly started saying things in a strange language. "Kadooshkma" was what I picked up. He said that several times, then said something absolutely strange to my ears. It was the Holy Spirit, and he claims "he was speaking in tongues".

This belief in "speaking in tongues" comes from a well known verse in the Gospel of Mark and comes from what we call "the long ending of Mark".

He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

The above verses and the surrounding story of Jesus going to his 11 disciples were human innovations not contained in the old manuscripts (Mark, chapter 16, verses 9-20). To put it crudely, its a forged verse.

Now whats the argument?

1. Is he pretending?
2. Does he really believe he is speaking in tongues?
3. Is it the placebo effect?
4. Is it the "also ran" syndrome? Crowd mentality?

Any other explanation?

In a buffet, I overheard a preacher training his replacement. He showed how he is supposed to arch his back, twist in a precise way, say precise words, and step in precise spots. He said this is to fool the people into believing that God is moving him, and it has to be the same movement as the last preacher to seem real.

Obviously both preachers were phony, and obviously they were scamming their victims.

I have met with the true psychics of God. They predict things that really do come true. They are the ones who God chose to give his message to the world in modern times (the message was "don't attack Iraq" which is the same as the message in Revelation. Yet, no one heeded the psychics of God, and everyone utterly ignored them. This is because Satan's fear and Satan's deception motivated the war in Iraq (which violated God's commandment to turn the other cheek, and God's commandment not to kill).

Satan's messages drown out God's messages. You have to have true faith in order to hear God.