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Is according to Jews everything God's will?

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Many of the laws in the Torah are not just. Functional, but not just. One may (or may not) be able to argue that the laws were more just than the surrounding societies of the time, but 'more just' is not the same thing as being just.
For the sake of argument, let's assume temporarily that what you say is true. Can you still not see that, ON THE ON THE WHOLE the law is still law and that as such it creates an orderly just society?
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
For the sake of argument, let's assume temporarily that what you say is true. Can you still not see that, ON THE ON THE WHOLE the law is still law and that as such it creates an orderly just society?
Laws are not inherently just. An orderly society created by enforcing laws is not inherently just. I would not call my society a just society, IndigoChild. It has sufficient justice to be different degrees of navigable, depending on who you are. But it still contains a considerable amount of injustice. And yet, I would still say that it is far more just that almost any ancient civilization.

If your god exists, and he created the laws of the Torah, then he was effectively a human contemporary to that time in outlook and understanding and morality. Nothing more.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It was God who offered forgiveness. God at times worked through atonement sacrifices, and at other times worked through straight repentance. But never at any time was it necessary to believe in a coming messiah to receive forgiveness.

The atonement sacrifices were types and shadows of the coming Messiah.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Laws are not inherently just. An orderly society created by enforcing laws is not inherently just. I would not call my society a just society, IndigoChild. It has sufficient justice to be different degrees of navigable, depending on who you are. But it still contains a considerable amount of injustice. And yet, I would still say that it is far more just that almost any ancient civilization.

If your god exists, and he created the laws of the Torah, then he was effectively a human contemporary to that time in outlook and understanding and morality. Nothing more.
I think that law and order is a heck of a lot better than the kind of revenge that prevails in anarchy. Under law and order, murder and theft etc. are punished. In my book, that makes society a whole lot more just. It's an eye for an eye. Under revenge, it's two eyes and the eyes of your children for an eye. You don't have to have every law to be just for this to be true.

I'm wondering, where do you live, that you feel your society is so unjust?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Nah. That's just a Christian idea. It's not in the Tanakh.

Ezekiel 18:21-23 is similar to the Christian idea of striving and trusting God. Doing what is just and right involves trusting God.

“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
I think that law and order is a heck of a lot better than the kind of revenge that prevails in anarchy. Under law and order, murder and theft etc. are punished. In my book, that makes society a whole lot more just.

I'm sorry, but are you denying the fact that unjust laws exist; both in their content and their systemic societal application?

I'm wondering, where do you live, that you feel your society is so unjust?
The United States of America.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Ezekiel 18:21-23 is similar to the Christian idea of striving and trusting God. Doing what is just and right involves trusting God.
Nothing in the verse you quoted states that atonement sacrifices were shadows of what the Messiah would do.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I'm sorry, but are you denying the fact that unjust laws exist; both in their content and their systemic societal application?


The United States of America.
I'm not denying unjust laws exist. I'm saying that a just society as a whole can exist despite the occasional unjust law.

I also live in the US, and you are mischaracterizing it. There is the occasional unjust law, but it is not typical. The US is a just society.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
I'm not denying unjust laws exist. I'm saying that a just society as a whole can exist despite the occasional unjust law.
And I am saying that it cannot. That the best a society that is structured on a partially sound foundation can be, is partially just.

I also live in the US, and you are mischaracterizing it. There is the occasional unjust law, but it is not typical. The US is a just society.
All three of those statements are incorrect.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Again with Job's redeemer.
1. Job's redeemer did not exist
2. Job's redeemer was not the messiah or God.

A Messiah is a Redeemer. The Lord laid upon Jesus the iniquity of us all. Job said that his redeemer would walk the earth, and Jesus walked the earth.

There is no evidence in the text that what Job said about the redeemer was a rumination.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
A Messiah is a Redeemer. The Lord laid upon Jesus the iniquity of us all. Job said that his redeemer would walk the earth, and Jesus walked the earth.

There is no evidence in the text that what Job said about the redeemer was a rumination.
No, the Messiah is not a redeemer.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
No, the Messiah is not a redeemer.

The Old Testament sacrifices foreshadowed Jesus dying for our sins. Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua

Perfect sacrifice.
Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
Leviticus 16 details how the priest is to give atonement for the sins of the people by shedding the blood of animals. These animals were substitutionary sacrifices. Moses's actions picture what Christ would do on the cross as the perfect sacrifice- deity in human form without sin and without blemish.

Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
II Corinthians 5:21, For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

John 1:29, ...Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

I Peter 1:18-19, ...redeemed with...the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

Unlike the blood of goats which had to be offered once a year in atonement, Christ takes away our sins for eternity.

The Tanakh also says that the Messiah would die by crucifixion.

Death by crucifixion.
Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
Psalm 22:16, ...they pierced my hands and my feet. (crucifixion was not a method of death in Israel at the time that this was written hundreds of years before Christ.)

Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
Matthew 27:35, And they crucified him...
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The Old Testament sacrifices foreshadowed Jesus dying for our sins. Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua



The Tanakh also says that the Messiah would die by crucifixion.
It is not in the Tanakh if you are quoting NT verses!!!!

The only verse you quoted from the Tanakh was from Psalm 22:16, and you quoted a very bad translation of it. Here it is properly translated:

For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.

Nothing there about crucifixion.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It is not in the Tanakh if you are quoting NT verses!!!!

The only verse you quoted from the Tanakh was from Psalm 22:16, and you quoted a very bad translation of it. Here it is properly translated:

For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.

Nothing there about crucifixion.

I mentioned parallels between the New Testament and the Tanakh, I didn't quote the New Testament as the Tanakh.
 
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