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How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well, that maybe. But, it does say where...
Baha'is have made "Zion" and "Jerusalem" symbolic so they can move mountains and make Mt Carmel and Haifa the place to go for the law to be going forth. So Jesus was right. If you believe, you can move mountains.
We don't have to move any mountains to make Mount Carmel into the place where the glory of the Lord appeared in the last days.

Isaiah prophesied that the Plain of Sharon and the holy mountain, Carmel, would both be centres for the light and presence of the ‘Glory of the Lord’ in the last days. He said:

“The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.” (Isaiah 35:1).

“It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (Isaiah 35:2).

“And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.” (Isaiah 35:10).

Again in the chapter preceding the one in which he, Isaiah, promises that God will raise up a ‘righteous man from the East’, he foretells:

“And the Glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of God hath spoken it.” (Isaiah 40:5).


"In that same year (1890) Bahá’u’lláh’s tent, the “Tabernacle of Glory,” was raised on Mt. Carmel, “the Hill of God and His Vineyard,” the home of Elijah, extolled by Isaiah as the “mountain of the Lord,” to which “all nations shall flow.” Four times He visited Haifa, His last visit being no less than three months long. In the course of one of these visits, when His tent was pitched in the vicinity of the Carmelite Monastery, He, the “Lord of the Vineyard,” revealed the Tablet of Carmel, remarkable for its allusions and prophecies. On another occasion He pointed out Himself to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, as He stood on the slopes of that mountain, the site which was to serve as the permanent resting-place of the Báb, and on which a befitting mausoleum was later to be erected." (God Passes By, p. 194)

From: William Sears, Thief in the Night
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Baha'is have made "Zion" and "Jerusalem" symbolic so they can move mountains and make Mt Carmel and Haifa the place to go for the law to be going forth. So Jesus was right. If you believe, you can move mountains.
My, my, how time flies... Look what I found in my directory, a post I posted to you in October 2019. ;)

We do not have to transfer anything, because there is no such "place" as Mt. Zion.

Mount Zion’s Meaning

The word “mount” is simply a shortened meaning of mountain and mountains often refer to governments or nations but often is referred to in Scripture as “the mountain of the Lord, to the Rock of Israel” (Isaiah 30:29b). In the case of Mount Zion it is representative of the Kingdom of God where we read in Hebrews 12:22 that “you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering.” That is where it is said “the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all” (Heb 12:23) will be at and it looks ahead to the New Jerusalem that will descend out of heaven (Rev 21:10-26).

What Is Zion and The Biblical Meaning? What Is Mount Zion In The Bible?

The government of the Baha'i Faith, the Universal House of Justice (UHJ) is located on Mt. Carmel.

Isaiah 2:2-3 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
All nations and all places includes everyone everywhere. Leaving out one person means the place where they are is not included.
Jeremiah 29:14
And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.

It says from all the nations and from all the places but it does not say all the Jews that live in all the nations and all the places.

It does not say everyone in all those nations and places, so leaving out one or more people would not mean the nation or place where they are living is not included.

It says I will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.

The question any sincere seeker of truth would who wanted to know the truth about the meaning of the verse would ask is what does Jeremiah mean by "you." He is referring to the Jews but he does not say all you Jews. Common sense and logic would tell you that because not every Jew in the world is going to be gathered up and return to Israel. But maybe that is what you want to believe since you believe the Messiah is coming just for the Jews. Maybe you want to believe that the Messiah is going to move all the Jews to Israel and the borders will be extended so they will all fit...

People believe all kind of things and they can and do mix and match verses in their scriptures to create their own version of who the Messiah will be and what he will do. The problem is that they have no Messiah, all they have is the hope for one. I cannot say how long this will last until God finally intercedes and makes it clear who the Messiah was. I hope it is soon.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why wouldn't Jesus fulfill the second coming prophecies himself? Saying it would have to be Bahullah is like saying there are two Messiahs. God does all things decently and in order. There's only a need for one Messiah.
God decides what is needed, not humans.
God decided that Jesus would lay the foundation for the Kingdom of God on earth and Baha'u'llah would come along later to finish the job.

There is nothing disorderly about that.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
God decides what is needed, not humans.
God decided that Jesus would lay the foundation for the Kingdom of God on earth and Baha'u'llah would come along later to finish the job.

There is nothing disorderly about that.

A lot of the opinions regarding Jesus not having a second coming are self refuting. They claim to know more than Jesus, which is blasphemous. The Second Coming of Jesus: Metaphor or Literal? | Reasons for Jesus

3. Jesus says nobody knows, not even himself, the time of the second coming. So if Jesus doesn’t know when, neither does Eckhart Tolle.
“But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” Mark 13:32 (also Matt. 24:36). Jesus didn’t even know the time and day of his second coming. If Jesus didn’t know, how can anybody else claim to know?

To say the second coming is a metaphor for of awakening that happens in people all over the world right now is to say we know the date of the second coming. Namely, the time at which a person transcends their sense of personal identity and ego. This is to attribute a time to the second coming, when even Jesus himself didn’t do this.

This should suggest to us that the second coming is a future event that has a fixed moment in time, not an ongoing process that has been happening for the last 2000 years.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I do not believe that the second coming of Jesus was a metaphor.

What makes Jesus returning in a different body more likely than theories like Eckhart Tolle or Christ consciousness? The Second Coming of Jesus: Metaphor or Literal? | Reasons for Jesus
4. This theory requires us to believe first in the concept of “Christ Consciousness”, a philosophy Jesus warned of in Matthew 24.

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.” – Matthew 24: 3-5

To believe that you can be Christ or that you ARE Christ, is to fall under the warning Jesus gave about deception that will take place in the final days. “I am Christ” is what many shall say to deceive people in the final days, according to Jesus.

Christ can’t be something within you if Jesus further warns against those who try to tell us where Christ is:

“THEN IF ANY MAN SHALL SAY UNTO YOU, LO, HERE IS CHRIST, OR THERE; BELIEVE IT NOT. FOR THERE SHALL ARISE FALSE CHRISTS, AND FALSE PROPHETS, AND SHALL SHEW GREAT SIGNS AND WONDERS; INSOMUCH THAT, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, THEY SHALL DECEIVE THE VERY ELECT.” – MATTHEW 24:23-24 (KJV)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What makes Jesus returning in a different body more likely than theories like Eckhart Tolle or Christ consciousness? The Second Coming of Jesus: Metaphor or Literal? | Reasons for Jesus
For one thing, Jesus could not return in the same body since after He died on the cross His soul ascended to the spiritual world (heaven), to the Right Hand of God. Jesus was given a spiritual body and that is what He has now. Spiritual bodies do not reside on earth, they only reside in heaven, so Jesus can never return to earth.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
For one thing, Jesus could not return in the same body since after He died on the cross His soul ascended to the spiritual world (heaven), to the Right Hand of God. Jesus was given a spiritual body and that is what He has now. Spiritual bodies do not reside on earth, they only reside in heaven, so Jesus can never return to earth.

How is that different from the belief of Christ being someone within us? Bahullah sounds a lot like the Bible verse about someone believing that they are Christ or can be Christ. Bahullah is a different person saying that he is Christ. Someone saying that they are Christ can be very deceptive.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Whether you are interested or not will not change reality since beliefs do not determine reality.

If there is one true God who revealed all the religions there is nothing you can do about it because you are not omnipotent. Believing Jews are the only ones who know who God is won't make it so, but it will show arrogance and illogic.

Imagine this, a God who favors 14 million people and abandons the remaining 7.8 billion people. Such a God could never exist unless He was terribly unjust and cruel.
Ignored: preaching
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How is that different from the belief of Christ being someone within us? Bahullah sounds a lot like the Bible verse about someone believing that they are Christ or can be Christ. Bahullah is a different person saying that he is Christ. Someone saying that they are Christ can be very deceptive.
I do not believe that Christ is literally within a believer. That is an allegory for having the spirit of Christ within, being close to Christ...

Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Jesus Christ, He only ever claimed to be the return of the Spirit of Christ.

In the following passage Baha'u'llah is saying that God and all His Messengers sent Jesus Christ to announce His (Baha'u'llah's) Coming.

“We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West. Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh) on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendour of His effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 18


In the following passage Baha'u'llah is saying that He is truly the one which Jesus Christ announced when He (Jesus Christ) came to you with the truth.

“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I do not believe that Christ is literally within a believer. That is an allegory for having the spirit of Christ within, being close to Christ...

Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Jesus Christ, He only ever claimed to be the return of the Spirit of Christ.

In the following passage Baha'u'llah is saying that God and all His Messengers sent Jesus Christ to announce His (Baha'u'llah's) Coming.

“We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West. Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh) on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendour of His effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 18


In the following passage Baha'u'llah is saying that He is truly the one which Jesus Christ announced when He (Jesus Christ) came to you with the truth.

“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19

In the following passage Baha'u'llah is telling the Christian kings that Jesus, who was the Spirit of God, promised to come back to them but they failed to recognize Him and behold His face and draw close to Him and attain His presence.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246

Interestingly, Baha'u'llah said the same thing to the Jews who failed to recognize Jesus

“Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation. As she never grasped their true significance, and, to outward seeming, such events never came to pass, she, therefore, remained deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus and of beholding the Face of God.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 20-21

That's still the same phenomenon of another person who isn't Christ saying he is Christ, because Bahullah doesn't have the body of Jesus.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I believe that hell is the prison of self. I believe there is also a place there for people who reject God's Messengers out of sheer arrogance.

I believe that many beliefs about hell aren't necessarily the truth. I believe that hell is being alone for eternity, separated from God. How can a loving God send people to hell?

Hell is separation from God and isolation from others. Mark Twain had it wrong when he said, "I like heaven for the climate and hell for the companionship." There will be no companionship in hell. It won't be one big party, like some people think. No wine, women and song. No laughing. Just weeping and gnashing of teeth. Constant regret. There will be no community in hell. Hell is solitary confinement. Which is why it's also described in Scripture as a place of utter darkness, separated from the light of God.

C. S. Lewis, the most powerful Christian writer of the 20th century, did a lot of thinking about hell. He wrote a book about it called The Great Divorce, the great separation. And in that book he concludes that hell is made up of people who live at an infinite distance from each other. They each make up there own little universe so they can spend eternity worshiping themselves, because that's what they wanted to do in this life.

Moreland puts it this way. He says that in the United States, as in most countries, the most serious crime you can commit is murder. And the punishment for murder is separation from society, either by execution or by life in prison. In God's universe the most serious crime you can commit is murdering him and that happens when we ignore him, mock him and choose to live without him. That happens when we could care less about his values and his Son's death for us. And the only punishment worthy of that crime is separation from God and his people for all eternity. And that's what hell is, a divine prison sentence.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
However, Jesus said that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Why would good works forgive us? The Bible says by grace we are saved. IF someone committed a crime and bribed a judge to avoid punishment, they would only make their punishment worse.
 
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