Christians. Heaven and hell

[Jacques de Molay]

How does innocence lead one to heaven if we have inherited sin from our first parents (according to some christian theological points of views)?

Why can't adults be innocent like children?

Why do we see ourselves with an inherited sin mentality where only children and those who medically can't discern right for wrong has a get out of jail free card but the rest of us is doomed to "hell" (interpreted in context)?

Only those who are free from sin can enter Heaven. Babies and young children (who don't know right from wrong) automatically satisfy this criteria.

As adults, we fall from Grace through sin, which we do repeatedly. So in order to enter Heaven, our sins MUST be forgiven, as they were through the sacrifice of Christ. However, we must still attempt to live Righteous lives (which we will fail to do), but we can't knowingly sin just because of Grace (Paul discusses this in ROMANS.)

Some adults ARE like children. For example, those with impaired cognitive abilities (What's the correct term for mental retardation these days?) are also sinless.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

......... Are children saved by virtue of being children or are they separated from god after death for eternity?
The usage of universal salvation, heaven, and hell et cetera are used to make this point. Obeying rules and the obligations a christian has to god and scripture as an adult isn't related to the question.

No eternal salvation for the wicked according to the Bible because the wicked will be destroyed forever (Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:30; Proverbs 2:21-11)
Minor children are ' saved ' by the behavior of the parent - 1 Corinthians 7:14
DEATH stamps the total asking price tag that sin pays as Paid In Full according to Romans 6:23,7
No post-mortem penalty, No double jeopardy in death.
Children ' sleep ' in death just like everyone else - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Sleep in death until Resurrection Day ( meaning Jesus coming Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years )
This is why the ' future tense' is used that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.....' at Acts of the Apostles 24:15

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Only those who are free from sin can enter Heaven. Babies and young children (who don't know right from wrong) automatically satisfy this criteria..........................
Some adults ARE like children. For example, those with impaired cognitive abilities (What's the correct term for mental retardation these days?) are also sinless.

Remember: parents know their minor children's leanings / will be toward wrongdoing; plus babies can't dedicate themselves to God.
Jesus sinless life paid for mankind's sins - 1 John 1:7
Because there are those who will end up rejecting Jesus is why Jesus' ransom covers MANY and does Not say everyone - Matthew 20:28.
DEATH is what allows one to enter Heaven, a heavenly resurrection.
Remember: only some are called to Heaven: such people as those found at Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18
They have that first or earlier resurrection as per Revelation 20:6; 2:10; 5:9-10.

DEATH also allows people to have a happy-and-healthy future physical resurrection back to live life on: Earth - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
The people who died before Jesus died (John 3:13) are Not called to heavenly life but to everlasting earthly life.
Dead parents can have their children resurrected: be back on Earth with their children on Earth.
So, up to the soon coming ' time of separation ' as found at Matthew 25:31-33,37 the dead can have their minor children returned to life again.
Since parents are responsible for minor children the figurative living ' sheep and goats ' are responsible for their minor children.

 

[Deeje]

You say everyone who has died has paid the penalty for sin. But everyone dies. It is not that simple. Physical death is what happens to every human. But spiritual death is the penalty for sin. After the dead are raised from their graves, they will be judged. Those who are found righteous will recieve eternal life as their reward. Those who are not righteous, will be destroyed in the lake of fire. That is the second death or spiritual death. That is the wages of sin.

Yes, that is exactly what Jesus said in John 5:28-29...

“Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”

“ALL in the memorial tombs...will come out” and be judged as to worthiness to continue living. 'Those who did good things' (from God’s perspective) will be granted life, but even 'those who practiced vile things' will be given an opportunity to change their ways during the thousand years of the Kingdom’s rulership.

The word used here ("memorial tomb") is important in this instance as it is not simply referring to a grave.
The word in Greek is "mnēmeion" and it means ....

1. "any visible object for preserving or recalling the memory of any person or thing
   1. a memorial, monument, specifically, a sepulchral monument
2. a sepulchre, a tomb" (Strongs Concordance)"

To his Jewish audience this had a meaning that can be lost on many Christians who did not come from Jewish backgrounds.

When Jesus spoke of "gehenna" as a place where the wicked would end up, he said in Matthew 10:28 that God would "destroy both body and soul in gehenna" (erroneously translated as "hell" in many Bibles) But to the Jews, being thrown into "gehenna" (the fires of the city's garbage dump) was to die without a burial tomb. It meant not being remembered by God in the resurrection, but forever lost in eternal death.


“The wages sin pays is death” and the highest penalty for any sin committed under God’s law, was death. The dead have paid for their sins and Jesus’ sacrifice guarantees that none who died in ignorance of the true God and his Savior will be held to account. A just God does not hold the ignorant accountable, but once educated, the ignorance is dispelled. The "unrighteous" are given an opportunity to change their ways. Like the people of the city of Nineveh when Jonah was sent to tell them of God's intentions to destroy their city.....they all repented and he spared them. They were not Jews and hence had no knowledge of the true God. Once given an opportunity to know about him, they decided to obey his directive and were saved at that time.

According to Jesus, we are living in a time period similar to the “days of Noah”, (Matthew 24:37-39) when he was to return, violence and immorality would again be rife in the earth, but in this ‘Age of Enlightenment’ and technological advancement, there is no real excuse for any of it. Civilized people should behave in a civilized way...but they don't by their own choice.

Just as Noah warned the people of his day, so that they had no excuse for their failure to listen and to act on his warning, so today God has sent his messengers out into the world (Matthew 24:14) to warn of God’s intentions regarding the situation in our day. These will have no excuse for failing to take notice, just like the people in Noah’s time. Once God closes the door of opportunity, it will be gone forever. No one outside of the ark, survived. What is the lesson? If we ignore it, we are doomed to repeat their mistake.

The very future of the planet and it’s inhabitants is under threat due to man’s gross mismanagement in his role as caretaker here. His dominion over this earth has been one where selfish personal or financial interests always came first...everything has suffered as a result, leaving God no choice but to do what he must to preserve his property. (Revelation 11:18)

As the worst of tenants, an eviction notice has been served on all humanity, but the physical removal of the bad tenants will only be undertaken when they have heard the warning. The King and his vast army will then move to act, in the near future. We all have to ask where we stand at this moment......and whether we are one of the bad tenants facing permanent eviction, or whether we will have the opportunity to become the new tenants in a cleansed and repaired planet Earth, ruled over by a new heavenly government? (2 Peter 3:13)

That is how we see it.

 

[alypius]

Are you meaning to say that we should see everyone, including children as naturally fallen and excluded from God, defacto?

If humans were not fallen (due to fall of first parents), then wouldn't there be a very strong tendency towards good in each human?

Yet have any of us met a human who did not at some point act against his or her own standards?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I don't believe we all "deserve" Hell. heck, if it was up to me, everyone I like would get to go to Heaven!

In that regard, aren't you glad it's NOT up to me??? Because my choices would be mostly subjective (as would anyone's), and would ensure that a lot of good people went to Hell just because I don't know them! (And in this case, 'good" would also be a subjective term...So there's that!)

However, it doesn't matter what I believe. The fact of the matter is that we are ALL sinners, and all fall short of the Glory of God. Through mercy (not getting what we deserve - Condemnation) and Grace (getting what we don't deserve - Salvation) from Christ's sacrifice, we can ALL be saved.

Regarding "kids"...Children are innocent. Children who die go to Heaven. End of story.

Can you give me anything in the Bible that says children (or anyone else) goes to heaven? I have been searching for years and never found it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Is that what I said? All the dead are in their graves...both the "righteous and the unrighteous" will be called out of their tombs (John 5:28-29).......there were no Christians before the first century.....so, not just Christians but all the dead are sleeping and will be resurrected. Only the incorrigibly wicked will remain in death....and only God knows who they are.

It was a question.

So, is that a yes? A no? Children receive consequences (sleep in grave, so have you) for the inherited sin of their parents?

Assuming righteousness has to do with what you do for god rather than being righteous as one's "true" nature.

"Death" is the wages of sin, (Romans 6:23) so whoever has died has paid the penalty for any sin that they may have committed. (Romans 6:7) Jesus' sacrifice then guarantees them a second chance to get it right in the resurrection. He died so they can live. He died so that those who are still here when the end comes, will never have to die at all.

He paid our penalty. Can you grasp the meaning of that?

Why would he guarantee them a second change?

I would think if one dies before they reach age of reason, they'd suffer the consequences of their parents inherited sin. It's sad to think of it that way since we see children as innocent, but inherited sin for christian belief makes living and being a life a burden if one feels they have to do it on their own. I'm glad not every religion takes that approach.

You're preaching. I'm specifically focused on children in the grave eternally for the sin of their parents. Everything else about christianity and the bible is irrelevant to my life and intellectual worldview; but yes, I do understand it from a protestant perspective not a JW one.

What an odd question....
If Jesus said that he was going to raise ALL the dead, then that would include their children. The resurrection is a promise and it will be carried out once the Kingdom has "come" and is ruling mankind. (Matthew 6:9-10)

But if people have inherited sin and "reject" christ or didn't know him, they stay in their graves and not be resurrected?

Or do people get resurrected and then sentence to death since they didn't obey christ?.... if so, why are children any different when they didn't know christ to even accept him. (In other words, ignorance is pardoned with god?)

Strangely if you live under a democracy, that is exactly what you are forced to do. Try breaking the laws of the land and see if that is not so. If you break the law, you damn yourself. What delusion are you entertaining? That democratic freedom is truly "free"? It can never be without restraints or there is anarchy.....if you prefer that, then all the best to you... Go march on the Capitol...

The problem is, these are your laws. You wouldn't go in another country and expect to bring your laws to that other country and then blame the people not under your laws for breaking them. That's silly.

The laws need to be universal. They are not. So, this analogy doesn't work for anyone but christians.

Was I talking against the USA or merely making a comment that everyone outside the US understands completely? Your people have a mindset that is foreign to the rest of the western world.....especially with regard to the marriage of politics and religion, and your attitude towards guns and armed conflict.

Just don't generalize the American population. We're a mixed breed here (if one likes) and damming us for our politics is like damning all christians (JW included) because people who represented christ killed pagans, judge and indoctrinate their children, and/or did what JW do, try to educate others so they come to christ (whether by sword or by word the same message applies).

It works both ways. Americans tend to judge and stereotype other countries as they do us. Many other countries get frustrated too. We're no exception.

You see.....that is exactly what I was talking about. You have to live outside the US to understand how insular you all seem to be in your attitudes towards the use of weapons and carrying out conflicts in countries that are none of the US government's business. How is that "fighting for your country"? How does the US tell others how to govern their people, when they are doing such a lousy job of it themselves? Where do they get the idea that they are somehow the saviors of the world by virtue of their military power.....? Its delusional IMO.

Have you been to United States?

Being American is part of one's nationality. We have different cultures and people all around the world born and/or raised here and raised in American culture but all in all, it's where we born. Our values differ depending on where in United States you're from, your religion, and so forth. Our politics do not define us anymore than the Catholic Church defines all christians.

How do the clergy hope to represent the "Christian" military men and women under their care, if they are at odds with the teachings of Jesus Christ who taught us to 'love our enemies', not kill them.....and especially not if those you are fighting also identify as "Christians"....can you not see the problem?...the complete hypocrisy? (1 John 4:20-21)

The "Christian" thing to do is to tell them to put down their weapons. Imagine if everyone was invited to a war and no one showed up?

Well, many people here don't support our politics (if you can tell)... so generalizations isn't really a good argument for how worse you feel America is.

The US is 'the world' to a great many of your population, and most have no idea what goes on in the rest of the world, or even how the US is viewed by them. How many could tell you where the rest of the world is even located on a map?

I read on a good stereotypes and misconceptions of America and didn't know people actually thought this. I guess it was an oversight on my part. It's a misconception.

You see, from the Bible's perspective, all human rulership is corrupt and needs to be replaced by God, not other equally flawed humans who will never make a better job of it.
God's "Kingdom" will "come" and his will, "will be done on earth as it is in heaven".....there is no way to avoid what is coming, and military power on earth will stop it. (Isaiah 54:17)

You can't apply this to Americans given we are not defined by our politics nor are we all under biblical laws and edicts.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Only those who are free from sin can enter Heaven. Babies and young children (who don't know right from wrong) automatically satisfy this criteria.

Do you believe in inherited sin?

All in all, I don't see how ignorance can get people scott free from the consequences of one's sinful nature. There's a passage someone in the bible that says humans have no excuse. What we don't know as adults (and by default, as children) does not keep us from going to hell. So, in that sense, thousands of people are not at right with the christian god only because of their age?

As adults, we fall from Grace through sin, which we do repeatedly. So in order to enter Heaven, our sins MUST be forgiven, as they were through the sacrifice of Christ. However, we must still attempt to live Righteous lives (which we will fail to do), but we can't knowingly sin just because of Grace (Paul discusses this in ROMANS.)

That sounds like a hard life you guys live feeling that you can't be righteous and blessed because you feel you have sin and will continue to sin. Brings a lot of guilt and there's a word for this, telling others they are in the same boat because you feel that way as well. Not everyone needs christ.

Some adults ARE like children. For example, those with impaired cognitive abilities (What's the correct term for mental retardation these days?) are also sinless.

Children and adults with cognitive difficulties can sin just as "adults" (as if we have difficult guidelines we go by depending on age and mental compacity?). A child who yells at his parents has sinned just as someone with cognitive difficulties decides to hit someone with or without their intention.

I'm sure the definition of a sin doesn't change by the person who commits it?

 

[Windwalker]

If humans were not fallen (due to fall of first parents), then wouldn't there be a very strong tendency towards good in each human?

Yet have any of us met a human who did not at some point act against his or her own standards?

I've come to realize that the primary motivation in humans is to do good, not to do evil. If we were nothing more than just lawlessness, greed, and a lack of empathy to our fellow man, we could not survive as a family, a community, a country, or a species.

If the core reality of who we are as humans is born into the direction of sin, suffering, and death from the moment we are born, then there would be no joy in our souls in life. There would be no love. There would be no hope.

I can't see see us as shrouded by that type of darkness. It is present, like a wolf at the door to be sure. But it is not the truth of who we are, unless we resign ourselves to that. We are created by Light.

 

[Deeje]

It was a question.

So, is that a yes? A no? Children receive consequences (sleep in grave, so have you) for the inherited sin of their parents?

I answered it......do you read my replies or just read over them? It seems pointless responding to you when you never seem to comprehend what I say....?

Why would he guarantee them a second change?

Because they died in ignorance....you can't break a law that you don't know exists...and you can't worship a God you have never heard of either. He will give the unrighteous dead a second chance because he wants to be fair to them. We are talking about those who had no opportunity to know God because of their location, language, or circumstances.....not those who know about him but don't care for his options, which are offered to all....take it or leave it.

I would think if one dies before they reach age of reason, they'd suffer the consequences of their parents inherited sin. It's sad to think of it that way since we see children as innocent, but inherited sin for christian belief makes living and being a life a burden if one feels they have to do it on their own. I'm glad not every religion takes that approach.

The consequences of our parents' inherited sin, is death.....do you know anyone who won't die eventually?
What is sad is your misunderstanding of so much of what I tell you. You put your own spin on it and address the spin, not my response. It is very frustrating to say the least.

I'm specifically focused on children in the grave eternally for the sin of their parents. Everything else about christianity and the bible is irrelevant to my life and intellectual worldview; but yes, I do understand it from a protestant perspective not a JW one.

Since God is the one who determines who is in sheol/hades and who is in gehenna....I'm sure he has that covered. Its not our problem and God abhors injustice so we can leave these things in his capable hands.

But if people have inherited sin and "reject" christ or didn't know him, they stay in their graves and not be resurrected?

Or do people get resurrected and then sentence to death since they didn't obey christ?.... if so, why are children any different when they didn't know christ to even accept him. (In other words, ignorance is pardoned with god?)

Seriously...I give up. If you just read my replies more carefully, you wouldn't have to keep asking the same questions. Up until the age of accountability, children are counted in with their parents who are responsible for them under law....God's law and man's law. When they reach the age of accountability they answer directly to God for themselves. There is no actual age, as maturity is achieved at various ages depending on the individual.

The problem is, these are your laws. You wouldn't go in another country and expect to bring your laws to that other country and then blame the people not under your laws for breaking them. That's silly.

The laws need to be universal. They are not. So, this analogy doesn't work for anyone but christians.

Democratic countries (and there are many of them) have basically the same approach to law. They operate under similar democratic principles AFAIK. It looks like freedom but there are constraints because free will cannot be entirely free or there is anarchy.

Have you been to United States?

Yes...have you ever been outside of the US?

Being American is part of one's nationality. We have different cultures and people all around the world born and/or raised here and raised in American culture but all in all, it's where we born. Our values differ depending on where in United States you're from, your religion, and so forth. Our politics do not define us anymore than the Catholic Church defines all christians.

I look back on the old American TV shows I used to watch decades ago and wonder if anyone really lived those lives or whether it was some kind of propaganda to keep the masses under the illusion that America was the greatest place on earth to live? Was it ever the reality? I know it had great appeal because everyone wanted to live in that "Apple Pie Disneyland". But for the majority I think it was somewhat of a pleasant illusion that everyone wished was theirs.

I read on a good stereotypes and misconceptions of America and didn't know people actually thought this. I guess it was an oversight on my part. It's a misconception.

I have no idea what you just said....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I answered it......do you read my replies or just read over them? It seems pointless responding to you when you never seem to comprehend what I say....?

When I quote, I go from top to bottom so I can read in sections. I can't understand it in one block of text on any and all posts on RF and life in general. Language issues.

So, whatever answers you gave I wouldn't see until I get there. That's why it seems like I'm repeating my questions you (all) have already answered. I don't get to the answer mostly until later. I don't go up and down trying to figure it out.

It's easier to ask "did you get my answer?" Or something like that. I've been told I'm playing games or being defensive or even sarcastic but it's just I quote from top to bottom, I don't go up and down trying to fix a puzzle of information, and I ask clarification questions often.

I'll get to the rest after I eat breakfast etc but this is you guys' information

 

[BilliardsBall]

If a child is raised with christian parent (not indoctrinated in religion), what is his sin before the age of reason?

Only Christians are accountable. A child knows what's right or wrong by scripture through upbringing and/or envirornt influences. He only sins when he is taught the criteria of goodness. Many children do not have this. If sins are actions against god, without intent what is his sin?

(Kind of like judging a person based on killing another in self defense)

Jesus is omniscient, so I believe rather than setting a birth age for accountability, He judges individuals, as He warned us repeatedly in the NT.

I don't think sins are all directly actions against God, but rather, I know that children have conscious morals and either submit to the temptation to sin or do not.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Because they died in ignorance....you can't break a law that you don't know exists...and you can't worship a God you have never heard of either. He will give the unrighteous dead a second chance because he wants to be fair to them. We are talking about those who had no opportunity to know God because of their location, language, or circumstances.....not those who know about him but don't care for his options, which are offered to all....take it or leave it.

Those who have heard "about" god is quite different than those who knows god exist and turn their back. So, thousands wouldnt be "saved" (it makes no difference to me) by judgement because their ignorance quite literally got the "best" of them. So, I see nothing wrong with that (personally).

The consequences of our parents' inherited sin, is death.....do you know anyone who won't die eventually?
What is sad is your misunderstanding of so much of what I tell you. You put your own spin on it and address the spin, not my response. It is very frustrating to say the least.

I'm not christian. So, you'd have to speak with me from a general perspective not someone interested in the christian faith.

It can be frustrating since not everyone needs to be saved none less christian. Just dialogue, Deeje. Nothing extrenuous.

Since God is the one who determines who is in sheol/hades and who is in gehenna....I'm sure he has that covered. Its not our problem and God abhors injustice so we can leave these things in his capable hands.

Shrugs. I don't have the issue many christians have with all of that. It's a very sad and harsh belief system that to even find love in it is far reaching. But I rather stay in the grave instead of hell fire (which honestly, what's actually 'burning?')

Seriously...I give up. If you just read my replies more carefully, you wouldn't have to keep asking the same questions. Up until the age of accountability, children are counted in with their parents who are responsible for them under law....God's law and man's law. When they reach the age of accountability they answer directly to God for themselves. There is no actual age, as maturity is achieved at various ages depending on the individual.

I sent you a disclaimer. In brief, I read from top to bottom so whatever answers you give me at the bottom, I wouldn't know until I get there. That means you could ask "did you get my answer?" or something of that nature. But please read my first post I gave you so you don't need to repeat yourself unnecessarily.

Democratic countries (and there are many of them) have basically the same approach to law. They operate under similar democratic principles AFAIK. It looks like freedom but there are constraints because free will cannot be entirely free or there is anarchy.

Yes...have you ever been outside of the US?

You're judging Americans by their politics.

I have not. The difference though is I don't harbor bad feelings about other countries even though many of which (say Africa and religions of that country) are demonized and built on stereotypes. I choose not to follow these stereotypes whether it be your country, Africa, or so have you.

Just don't judge Americans.

I look back on the old American TV shows I used to watch decades ago and wonder if anyone really lived those lives or whether it was some kind of propaganda to keep the masses under the illusion that America was the greatest place on earth to live? Was it ever the reality? I know it had great appeal because everyone wanted to live in that "Apple Pie Disneyland". But for the majority I think it was somewhat of a pleasant illusion that everyone wished was theirs.

Probably not. Depends on what part of the states you've visited and in what year. US is pretty huge and we have sub-cultures here as well as dialects. Our politics as a whole may be one thing but individual states can enforce it in many others. Some places are more religious than others. Some are more poor and others are well-to do. Just like other countries we have our give and takes.

I have no idea what you just said....

Oh. When someone says they are French, they're talking about their culture/language/where they live.

When someone says they are American, they're talking about where they live. The nation(ality) they live in. We have multiple cultures here and people speak many languages. So, American culture differs depending on where you live in the states and the environment you're raised in. Unless you're born and/or raised here, it would look totally different just as my looking from the outside in as well.

Believe me, just because I visit another country, stay there for years, and speak their language they won't treat me like their equal. There's a lot of stereotypes of America. Please don't judge us by our politics.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Jesus is omniscient, so I believe rather than setting a birth age for accountability, He judges individuals, as He warned us repeatedly in the NT.

I don't think sins are all directly actions against God, but rather, I know that children have conscious morals and either submit to the temptation to sin or do not.

What are children's conscious morals without the influence of their environment and parents?

 

[Deeje]

When I quote, I go from top to bottom so I can read in sections. I can't understand it in one block of text on any and all posts on RF and life in general. Language issues.

So, whatever answers you gave I wouldn't see until I get there. That's why it seems like I'm repeating my questions you (all) have already answered. I don't get to the answer mostly until later. I don't go up and down trying to figure it out.

It's easier to ask "did you get my answer?" Or something like that. I've been told I'm playing games or being defensive or even sarcastic but it's just I quote from top to bottom, I don't go up and down trying to fix a puzzle of information, and I ask clarification questions often.

When you post in a debate forum, you should be prepared to debate. If you merely want a discussion, then post in an appropriate forum.

I sent you a disclaimer. In brief, I read from top to bottom so whatever answers you give me at the bottom, I wouldn't know until I get there. That means you could ask "did you get my answer?" or something of that nature. But please read my first post I gave you so you don't need to repeat yourself unnecessarily.

I'm sorry but a disclaimer just doesn't help.....

I assume that when I respond to someone they will respond to me in kind......not me having to ask "did you get my answer"....as a matter of courtesy, you should have read my answer. Try having that kind of conversation in person.....how many people would bother to talk to you at all? Please just pay attention.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

When you post in a debate forum, you should be prepared to debate. If you merely want a discussion, then post in an appropriate forum.



I'm sorry but a disclaimer just doesn't help.....

I assume that when I respond to someone they will respond to me in kind......not me having to ask "did you get my answer"....as a matter of courtesy, you should have read my answer. Try having that kind of conversation in person.....how many people would bother to talk to you at all? Please just pay attention.

Deeje, it's just common courteously to mind that when I read posts on RF I section them off (quote) and go from the top to bottom. So any answers you say I will not get until I reach that part of the post.

This is why it may seem liked I'm asking repetitive questions. I'm reading all of what you say just not all at one time.

That's a lump sum of what I was trying to tell you to keep that in mind.

The second part is debates just means you present a point and have support (subjective, objective, biblical, whatever) in order to validate what you say so the other party (me or someone else) will get your point whether we agree with it or not. Since debates are not arguments, I would hope it would be civilized.

"how many people would bother to talk to you at all?"

Unless you want to argue, you have to at least have some common courtesy to all people on RF whether they are outside the states, have language issues, their language isn't native English, or so have you. Online you MUST be patient and have an open discussion and be ready for questions and answers.

In debates, it's understandable to get frustrated...

but it is not to insult. That isn't a debate nor is it necessary to make a point.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Deeje, that really hurt my feelings. I wish you knew me in person but since you don't, it really bothers me you'd think anyone person online and otherwise would make you frustrated on purpose. I honestly don't know "what jesus would do" but I'm sure he wouldn't be sarcastic and insulting in his remarks.

 

[sojourner]

I wonder how many Christians do not believe that the Bible reveals things that god did....

See what I did there?
I one upped ya on roll eyes emojis

I don’t believe that the Bible is the be-all-end-all where theology is concerned. The Bible includes many streams of theological tradition, and they don’t jive with each other. Fact is, the religions that are in the biblical traditions change over time, and our theological views change over time. There aren’t a lot of us that put any literal stock in the Deuteronomy passage. The are a number of Christians who don’t believe in hell or in eternal damnation. Myself included.

 

[cataway]

Jesus is omniscient, so I believe rather than setting a birth age for accountability, He judges individuals, as He warned us repeatedly in the NT.

I don't think sins are all directly actions against God, but rather, I know that children have conscious morals and either submit to the temptation to sin or do not.

Jesus is omniscient, are you sure about that ? i know that he know alot ,but every thing ??

 

[Deeje]

Deeje, that really hurt my feelings. I wish you knew me in person but since you don't, it really bothers me you'd think anyone person online and otherwise would make you frustrated on purpose. I honestly don't know "what jesus would do" but I'm sure he wouldn't be sarcastic and insulting in his remarks.

Well, now you've hurt my feelings

......so I guess that makes us even. (purposely sarcastic, just so you know what it looks like.)

Where I come from, nothing I said would be taken as sarcastic or insulting.....just someone expressing their own "feelings" of frustration......we all have them, ya know. Are your feelings more important than mine? Are my feelings more important than yours? At the end of the day, they are just feelings....."wonderful friends, but terrible masters", as the saying goes. Do they drive us...or do we drive them? We need to get a grip on them.

Sorry, I just don't tip toe well around people's super sensitivities....everyone is fighting some kind of battle.
If we are posting on an internet debating site, perhaps we need to leave our "feelings" at the door. This is no place for "feelings"....its a place to discuss issues and topics....frankly and openly and hopefully in a civil fashion, which means not having the vapors because someone made a criticism that you didn't like.

If you post a thread like this to "Christians", and then state that you're not a Christian so you basically couldn't care less what we believe, and think its a horrible religion anyway.....then don't you think that it sounds a bit ridiculous to create a thread like this in the first place?

The best thing I can do is leave you to your feelings and move onto less frustrating discussions. OK?