How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[dybmh]

First, let me say that what is most important to Baha’is is that Baha’u’llah was Manifestation of God (Messenger of God). The fact that Baha’u’llah was a Messiah, as promised in all the world’s religions, is because of His mission on earth, His place in history. Because of that, I would say that the choice to believe in Baha’u’llah as a Manifestation of God should be determined by all the evidence that shows that He was a Manifestation of God, including His character, the history of His Cause, and His Writings, whereas the choice to believe in Baha’u’llah as a Messiah should be coming from the prophecies, whether what He did and promised to do lines up with what those prophecies say the Messiah will do and what will happen during the Messianic Age. I hope that makes sense.

Yes, this makes perfect sense. Based on this, it doesn't matter whether or not Baha’u’llah is the Messiah, The Promised One. It doesn't matter if Jewish people chose not to look at other interpretations of Tanach. It's a wild goose chase without proof that Baha’u’llah is God-like and infallible.

How can the Jew reject Baha’u’llah? Because proving that he's God-like and infallible is virtually impossible, it requires a leap of faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do you think Bahullah will be the second coming of the Messiah if the prophecies about the second coming of Jesus are literal? The Second Coming of Jesus: Metaphor or Literal? | Reasons for Jesus

I believe that the literal Second Coming of Jesus is completely absurd, and I believe those Christians are completely deluded. It is excruciatingly painful just to it read about it.
You asked, I answered.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jeremiah 29:14

And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.
​

Trailblazer said: Please note that none of the prophecies say that ALL the Jews who had been scattered throughout the world would return to their homeland.

That's right, the verse says that the Lord will gather Jews from ALL the nations and from ALL the places where they were driven to by the Lord and the Lord will return those Jews that were gathered to the place from whence they were exiled.

Please note that the verse does not say that the Lord will gather ALL the Jews in the world and return ALL the Jews in the world to the place from whence they were exiled.

 

[Trailblazer]

"There are no such quotes..." "It is a given..." That's not quite the same as knowing it because of what's written.

You will have to read the New Testament if you want the "details" regarding what Jesus accomplished.

OK, I'll strike this from the list of prophecies fulfilled by Baha’u’llah. So besides Micah 7:12 what other Tanach prophecies were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah?

I guess you mean things Baha'u'llah actually did Himself that fulfilled the prophecies. I am sure there are many such prophecies, but it would take me a while to find them all.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, this makes perfect sense. Based on this, it doesn't matter whether or not Baha’u’llah is the Messiah, The Promised One. It doesn't matter if Jewish people chose not to look at other interpretations of Tanach. It's a wild goose chase without proof that Baha’u’llah is God-like and infallible.

As I tell the atheists, nobody can "prove" that Baha'u'llah or any Messenger of God got messages from God, or if any Messengers are God-like and infallible. It is a religious "belief" and such beliefs can never be proven as facts.

How can the Jew reject Baha’u’llah? Because proving that he's God-like and infallible is virtually impossible, it requires a leap of faith.

That is what I just said above before I read what you said above. It is impossible to prove.
But it is also impossible to prove God exists and it is impossible to prove that Moses got messages from God on Mount Sinai.
All we have are stories written in a book and they are not verifiable.

 

[danieldemol]

Trailblazer said: Please note that none of the prophecies say that ALL the Jews who had been scattered throughout the world would return to their homeland.

That's right, the verse says that the Lord will gather Jews from ALL the nations and from ALL the places where they were driven to by the Lord and the Lord will return those Jews that were gathered to the place from whence they were exiled.

Please note that the verse does not say that the Lord will gather ALL the Jews in the world and return ALL the Jews in the world to the place from whence they were exiled.

What about Isaiah 11:11
'
In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.

12 He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters of the earth.'

What of this word 'remnant' mean to you? Have the remnant of Jews been removed from Assyria, Egypt, the Mediterranean Islands?
Did it occur during the life of Baha'u'llah?

 

[Skywalker]

I believe that the literal Second Coming of Jesus is completely absurd, and I believe those Christians are completely deluded. It is excruciatingly painful just to it read about it.
You asked, I answered.

Jesus coming from heaven is literal and cannot refer to anything else. Even the prophet Daniel in the Old Testament mentioned the Son of Man coming on the clouds in Daniel 7:13. The Second Coming of Jesus: Metaphor or Literal? | Reasons for Jesus

2. 100% of the 60-70 verses in the New Testament speak of the second coming as being the literal return of Jesus himself.


Not only do the descriptions of the second coming require us to believe it is a literal return of Jesus, every single verse about the second coming in the New Testament speaks of it as being of Jesus specifically. For example where it says: “and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels” 2 Thessalonians 1:7 (ESV).

Every verse in the Bible speaks about the second coming of Jesus as being just that; of Jesus by name. There is no talk of the second coming of a state of consciousness, a state of awakening, and no mention of the second coming as being anything other than Jesus as a person.

 

[dybmh]

Trailblazer said: Please note that none of the prophecies say that ALL the Jews who had been scattered throughout the world would return to their homeland.

That's right, the verse says that the Lord will gather Jews from ALL the nations and from ALL the places where they were driven to by the Lord and the Lord will return those Jews that were gathered to the place from whence they were exiled.

Please note that the verse does not say that the Lord will gather ALL the Jews in the world and return ALL the Jews in the world to the place from whence they were exiled.

All nations and all places includes everyone everywhere. Leaving out one person means the place where they are is not included.

 

[dybmh]

You will have to read the New Testament if you want the "details" regarding what Jesus accomplished.

The Christian bible is inconclusive about what Jesus acomplished. In Matthew 5 Jesus says he wouldn't change the law until everything was accomplished, then he immediately changed it. That's dishonest.

I guess you mean things Baha'u'llah actually did Himself that fulfilled the prophecies. I am sure there are many such prophecies, but it would take me a while to find them all

Fom what I've found, the interpretation of the prophecies reduce the requirements for fulfillment and diminsh the grandeur of the results making "The Messiah" an insignificant figure.

 

[dybmh]

As I tell the atheists, nobody can "prove" that Baha'u'llah or any Messenger of God got messages from God, or if any Messengers are God-like and infallible. It is a religious "belief" and such beliefs can never be proven as facts.

Then this statement below is unfounded.

if Baha'u'llah was the Messiah and He unsealed the Book as per Daniel 12, only Baha'is can fully understand what these scriptures mean.

"Only Baha'is can fully understand..." is ridiculous.

 

[dybmh]

That is what I just said above before I read what you said above. It is impossible to prove.
But it is also impossible to prove God exists and it is impossible to prove that Moses got messages from God on Mount Sinai.
All we have are stories written in a book and they are not verifiable.

Then, there is no good reason to supplement one unverifiable text with another unverifiable text. Based on this, progressive revelation has no value.

 

[Skywalker]

All nations and all places includes everyone everywhere. Leaving out one person means the place where they are is not included.

Not all language is literal. Some Jews left during the diaspora to find greener pastures and not for the more common reason of the Romans driving them out, so the textbooks saying that the Jews were driven out isn't literal to the most minute detail.

 

[dybmh]

Not all language is literal. Some Jews left during the diaspora to find greener pastures and not for the more common reason of the Romans driving them out, so the textbooks saying that the Jews were driven out isn't literal to the most minute detail.

Please refer to what Trailblazer said:

Please note that none of the prophecies say that ALL the Jews who had been scattered throughout the world would return to their homeland.

"None of the prophecies say ..." That's not true. Jeremiah 29:14 is a prophecy that says Jews will be gathered from all nations in all places.

 

[Skywalker]

Please refer to what Trailblazer said:



"None of the prophecies say ..." That's not true. Jeremiah 29:14 is a prophecy that says Jews will be gathered from all nations in all places.

I believe that the final regathering of Jews will happen during the second coming of Messiah.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Do Jews believe in a physical resurrection similar to most Christians? Because you know Baha'i, who say they have the latest and more accurate message from God, say that there is no such thing as a physical resurrection.

It depends on which Jews you talk to. Most religious Jews do--that's the traditional understanding. In my experience, sometimes Reform Jews do not believe in a resurrection or any kind of afterlife.

 

[Trailblazer]

What about Isaiah 11:11

In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

Isaiah 11:11 says “in that day.” That could be interpreted to mean any number of things, the Day of the Lord, the last days, or during the Messianic Era, or it could mean all three.

It says: “the Lord will reach out his hand.” It is obvious to me that is metaphorical because God does not have hands. What that means to me is that according to God’s Will, God will cause this to happen.

It says God will reclaim the surviving remnant of His people in Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.

What does it mean to reclaim something?

transitive verb. 1a : to recall from wrong or improper conduct : reform. b : tame, subdue. 2a : to rescue from an undesirable state also : to restore to a previous natural state reclaim mining sites.
Reclaim | Definition of Reclaim by Merriam-Webster

Within this context, what reclaim means to me is that God will come back and get (rescue) those people that were in an undesirable state and restore them to their previous state.

12 He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.'

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

To me Isaiah 11:12 means God will bring back the Jews who had been exiled to their homeland (Israel), and these Jews who will be brought back will come from the all over the world (from the four quarters of the earth), and they will be assembled (gathered together) in Israel.

Please note that the verse does not say that ALL the Jews in the world who had been exiled will be brought back to Israel.
It says that Jews will come from ALL over the world and they will be assembled in Israel.

What of this word 'remnant' mean to you?

Remnant: (Entry 1 of 2) 1a : a usually small part, member, or trace remaining. b : a small surviving group —often used in plural. 2 : an unsold or unused end of piece goods.
Remnant | Definition of Remnant by Merriam-Webster

What does remnant mean in the Bible?

The remnant is a recurring theme throughout the Hebrew and Christian Bible. The Anchor Bible Dictionary describes it as "What is left of a community after it undergoes a catastrophe". The concept has stronger representation in the Hebrew Bible and Christian Old Testament than in the Christian New Testament.
Remnant (Bible) - Wikipedia

Within this context, remnant means what is left of God’s people, the small surviving group.

Have the remnant of Jews been removed from Assyria, Egypt, the Mediterranean Islands?
Did it occur during the life of Baha'u'llah?

I do not know if the remnant of Jews been removed from Assyria, Egypt, the Mediterranean Islands, but the verse does not say they would be removed, it says they would be recovered.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

These words have different meanings. Remove means take (something) away or off from the position occupied whereas recover means to bring back to normal position or condition.

Even if it was interpreted to mean the remnant of Jews in these places would be recovered and then move back to Israel that does not mean that the entire remnant of Jews (every single Jew) living in those places would move back to Israel.

I do not know how many Jews returned to Israel during the lifetime of Baha’u’llah, but according to this article 'Gathering of the Exiles': After Thousands of Years, Jews Come Home to Israel, nearly 70 years before the rebirth of the modern State of Israel, the Jewish people began to return to their ancient homeland, as the prophets foretold. Since the modern state of Israel was established in 1948, that would mean that the Jews started coming back in 1878, which was during the lifetime of Baha’u’llah.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Another thing Jews do not realize is that Jesus was indeed a Messiah, and He did fulfill many of the prophecies in the Tanakh, but He did not fulfill all of them because that was not part of God's Plan. God's Plan was to send another Messiah in the future in order to complete the work Jesus started. That is why Jesus promised to send 'another Comforter' who would complete the work He started and fulfill the remainder of the prophecies, including the prophecies that refer to the Messianic Age. We are only in the beginning of the Messianic Age which is to last no less than 1000 years from the year 1863 AD, so those Messiah prophecies have not all been fulfilled.

Let's just pick one messianic prophecy to start with. The Messiah is to usher in an era of worldwide peace between the nations. "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Isaiah 2:4

This simply has not happened yet. since the time of Jesus, we have had 2000 years of international warfare. Nor did Jesus act as a judge between the nations. The same could be said of the Baha'u'llah -- he did not usher in an era of worldwide peace.

So I'm sorry -- the two of them simply don't qualify as Messiah. At least, not the Messiah prophesied by the Tanakh.

 

[Skywalker]

It depends on which Jews you talk to. Most religious Jews do--that's the traditional understanding. In my experience, sometimes Reform Jews do not believe in a resurrection or any kind of afterlife.

Why did the prophet Daniel mention people awakening to everlasting contempt or to life?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's more along the lines of the Jewish sects who believe that there will be two Messiahs.

That interpretation was rejected LONG ago. Like many bad ideas that come and then go, it is no longer entertained.

 

[Skywalker]

That interpretation was rejected LONG ago. Like many bad ideas that come and then go, it is no longer entertained.

Beliefs like two Messiahs and all of the prophecies being fulfilled in one coming are not as consistent as the Christian interpretation of one Messiah who will fulfill some of the prophecies in the future.