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Truth and Religion

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
If you join a religion because it says that it teaches the truth, but continuously updates or outright changes its official beliefs, is the religion then contradicting itself?

Also, if you join the religion because of its current beliefs, but then those beliefs change, is it logical for them to accuse you of rejecting the truth if you leave because of the changes?
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Any organisation that has to say something like "We tell the truth"; straight away I assume they are lying.

How many organisations - apart from QAnon- brags about lying. You never hear an organisation saying, "We tell the best lies"

It goes without saying that you tell the truth, if you have to stress that point you are not being truthful
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
If you join a religion because it says that it teaches the truth, but continuously updates or outright changes its official beliefs, is the religion then contradicting itself?

Also, if you join the religion because of its current beliefs, but then those beliefs change, is it logical for them to accuse you of rejecting the truth if you leave because of the changes?

What religion inspired this post? I'm not aware of any that are doing this.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Well.... science is always "updating", but that isn't invalidation is it?
No, because it doesn't brag about knowing the truth. It just says it has the best current explanation - almost expecting it to be refined, revised and improved upon.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
If you join a religion because it says that it teaches the truth, but continuously updates or outright changes its official beliefs, is the religion then contradicting itself?

Also, if you join the religion because of its current beliefs, but then those beliefs change, is it logical for them to accuse you of rejecting the truth if you leave because of the changes?
Not generally (although it could result in that). In my view, it depends on some factors.

One can be teaching with a limited revelation and think that one is teaching truth but as you dig deeper one changes his understanding and then actually begin to teach truth.

You don't have to leave when "truth" is taught and exposes one's incorrect teaching.

However, if the very foundation that one is teaching is a falsehood and that foundation is the basis of one's religion, then one may have to leave that religion.

Generally speaking, if the update violates your conscious (some updates aren't important), then one of two options may be available. The first is change faith or the second is within that organization find one outlet that didn't change their position just because someone else said "we are changing".

two cents ... feel free to throw out if you don't agree.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Well.... science is always "updating", but that isn't invalidation is it?

Difference is though that science pursues more knowledge and doesn't say that it has all the knowledge already. Otherwise they wouldn't be investigating anything or discovering anything.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Any organisation that has to say something like "We tell the truth"; straight away I assume they are lying.

How many organisations - apart from QAnon- brags about lying. You never hear an organisation saying, "We tell the best lies"

It goes without saying that you tell the truth, if you have to stress that point you are not being truthful

I would think that it would also mean that they do not have a healthy sense of humility.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
What religion inspired this post? I'm not aware of any that are doing this.

There are quite a few. But I don't want to isolate a specific religion because I would rather deal with the implications of the statement which could apply to any group, rather than any specific group, so I won't mention which group it is. Besides, my post can be discussed whether it is present in a religion or not.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
No, because it doesn't brag about knowing the truth. It just says it has the best current explanation - almost expecting it to be refined, revised and improved upon.

But it is not the best as with evidence. It is the best in your mind and nowhere else. So you in effect claim the truth, because it can't be that it is not the best.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Any organisation that has to say something like "We tell the truth"; straight away I assume they are lying.

How many organisations - apart from QAnon- brags about lying. You never hear an organisation saying, "We tell the best lies"

It goes without saying that you tell the truth, if you have to stress that point you are not being truthful

If someone accuses one of being dishonest or makes such an implication, if one stresses they're telling the truth, it doesn't mean one is not being truthful.

Or we could just apply this logic to all statements made on RF.
  • If you find it necessary to stress that you don't believe in God, then you clearly believe in one.
  • If you find it necessary to stress that you believe in God, then you're clearly an atheist.
  • If you find it necessary to stress you abhor Trump and his actions, then you're clearly a supporter.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
If you join a religion because it says that it teaches the truth, but continuously updates or outright changes its official beliefs, is the religion then contradicting itself?

In my experience, the religions that are open to constant revision are not the ones that claim they teach "the truth." They are the ones that understand truth is plural, not singular, and are thus also very comfortable with supposed contradiction.


IAlso, if you join the religion because of its current beliefs, but then those beliefs change, is it logical for them to accuse you of rejecting the truth if you leave because of the changes?

I guess? I'm not part of a religion that works like that - I'm in one of those traditions that perceives truths (plural) not truth (singular).
 

Sirona

Hindu Wannabe
What religion inspired this post? I'm not aware of any that are doing this.

AFAIK the Jehovah's Witnesses do this a lot, as their actual, binding "holy writings" are their magazines, Watchtower and Awake! I don't know whether they still publish those magazines semimonthly, but they did when I was a kid. For example, they used to believe up to the 1990's that the generation born up to 1914 would not die but experience the return of Jesus. Then, from one week to another, they just removed the "1914 dogma" without any explanation or apology. As many of their scriptures are available online now, it's even easier for them to change content. They even admit that the online copies of the magazines may be updated and may be different from the printed ones.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
One can be teaching with a limited revelation and think that one is teaching truth but as you dig deeper one changes his understanding and then actually begin to teach truth.

You don't have to leave when "truth" is taught and exposes one's incorrect teaching.

However, if the very foundation that one is teaching is a falsehood and that foundation is the basis of one's religion, then one may have to leave that religion.[/QUOTE] So with limited revelation, should the religion then acknowledge to its followers that it taught error and not truth? If this happens chronically in the group, with the group constantly saying that it teaches the truth but keeps updating and changing beliefs, is that a warning sign?

You definitely don't have to leave the group in the OP situation, but should the group them say it is your fault for leaving because you haven't stuck to "the truth"? Should you be free to leave the group without consequences?

However, if the very foundation that one is teaching is a falsehood and that foundation is the basis of one's religion, then one may have to leave that religion.
This is a good point which I agree with.

Generally speaking, if the update violates your conscious (some updates aren't important), then one of two options may be available. The first is change faith or the second is within that organization find one outlet that didn't change their position just because someone else said "we are changing".
Agreed.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
There are quite a few. But I don't want to isolate a specific religion because I would rather deal with the implications of the statement which could apply to any group, rather than any specific group, so I won't mention which group it is. Besides, my post can be discussed whether it is present in a religion or not.

To be clear, are we talking about a religion that changes it's beliefs for reasons such as foretold prophesies didn't unfold, or are we talking about a religion that adjust it's views to align with new information such as scientific discovery?
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
AFAIK the Jehovah's Witnesses do this a lot, as their actual, binding "holy writings" are their magazines, Watchtower and Awake! I don't know whether they still publish those magazines semimonthly, but they did when I was a kid. For example, they used to believe up to the 1990's that the generation born up to 1914 would not die but experience the return of Jesus. Then, from one week to another, they just removed the "1914 dogma" without any explanation or apology. As many of their scriptures are available online now, it's even easier for them to change content. They even admit that the online copies of the magazines may be updated and may be different from the printed ones.

You are referring to their "New Light" doctrine supported by a scripture in Proverbs (Verse 4:18 I think?) that is addressing "light" in terms of behaviour and not doctrine.

You should look into their continuous updating of the "generation" teaching. These days it doesn't make sense at all and was changed just because the timing of their previous generation time table was running out and the end was no where in sight. They still view 1914 as an important year in history but have changed the meaning they attribute to it.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
If you join a religion because it says that it teaches the truth, but continuously updates or outright changes its official beliefs, is the religion then contradicting itself?

Also, if you join the religion because of its current beliefs, but then those beliefs change, is it logical for them to accuse you of rejecting the truth if you leave because of the changes?

First of all, I don't think any major religion is continuously changing its beliefs, so the issue does not seem to arise. Unless you have examples in mind, perhaps?

Secondly, like others on this thread I always treat claims of truth with circumspection. Religions provide guidance to people, to help them live their lives in a state of equanimity, and they do this by focusing on certain principles or ideas that are helpful and contain certain kinds of truth.

But it's always best to keep one's distance from anyone who claims to possess "the truth", not least because all the religions say somewhat different things, so somebody must be at least a bit wrong!
 
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Samael_Khan

Goosebender
To be clear, are we talking about a religion that changes it's beliefs for reasons such as foretold prophesies didn't unfold, or are we talking about a religion that adjust it's views to align with new information such as scientific discovery?

The changes are regarding interpretation of Prophesy but more importantly understanding of what scriptures mean and how they affect followers in the real world.
 
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