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How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The existence of the Jewish people in unity will happen when Jesus returns. Then all of Israel will be regathered.
When that happens, as I've said before, let's talk. Until then, it's just wishful thinking.
The Old Covenant was dissolved in the context of the Gentiles who follow Jesus.
Anyone who accepts the covenant of grace dissolves the covenant of law.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
The mistake people made in the past (assuming that the story is true) was thinking that the miracles = messiah.

The Tanakh talks about the Messiah preforming miracles. The Messiah would perform signs of healing

Reference: Isaiah 35:5–6
Fulfillment: Matthew 11:4–6, Luke 7:20–23

In Isaiah 35:5–6, the prophet speaks of the day of salvation this way: “Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped; then shall the lame man leap like a deer, and the tongue of the mute sing for joy. For waters break forth in the wilderness, and streams in the desert.”
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
When that happens, as I've said before, let's talk. Until then, it's just wishful thinking.

Anyone who accepts the covenant of grace dissolves the covenant of law.

Not all of the NT Jews followed the Old Testament legal system. The Jews in Israel don't. It's up to a person's convictions and conscience today if they want to follow the old law or not.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I think this is a little unfair considering the judgements that are made against "Jews". That's unjust as well. Anytime someone makes a judgement about someone based on their religious affiliation, that's jumping to conclusions too.
All I meant was that it is unjust to make judgments until you have all the facts. That is called jumping to conclusions.
If Baha’u’llah's words are 100% true then Jesus annuled "the most weighty of the laws of Moses". I don't see anyway around it.
And so what if Jesus did that? If Jesus was a Messenger of God he had the authority from God to annul anything that had been revealed previously.
It's a really good point. But that doesn't change the fact that Jesus said he wasn't going to change the law and then made some major changes. It's dishonest.
Please post the verses where Jesus said He was not going to change the law.
Everytime a new Messenger is added to the list in the chain it makes it harder and harder to prove that each one a 100% perfect Manifestation of God.
There is really no need for a Baha’i to prove anything about all the older Manifestations of God because they were validated by Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It doesn't really say that the Messiah will do this.

Just because the law is nto followed, that doesn't mean that the law is optional.

I believe that for Messianic Jews, following Jewish law can be part of God's convictions for them. I don't think its two religions in one is the right way to look at it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If "Truly" doesn't mean "Truly" that makes the Christian bible not a credible souce. If it's words aren't taken literally, then it calls into question whether or not Jesus literally fulfilled any of the prophecies.
I am sorry, but one has nothing to do with the other. The fact that Jesus spoke in parables and used figurative language has nothing to do with whether He fulfilled the prophecies or not.
The conversation started because you were saying that Jews don't realize that Jesus is a Messiah. I said that no one really knows what Jesus said or did, so anyone including Jews should not be disparaged because they don't accept a claim of Messiah status without credible information. I didn't say that one scripture was better or worse because of credibility. I said that a Messianic claim needs credible evidence. If the texts are not understood literally, then the text themselves are not credible evidence.
1. How does anyone really know what Moses said or did? All you have are scriptures but they were not written by Moses, so how is that different from the fact that all we have are NT scriptures that were not written by Jesus?
2. I disagree that just because Jesus used metaphorical language that means that the texts re not evidence of what Jesus said and did. The texts might not be credible to you, but as I said before credibility is irrelevant because all people have different standards as to what is credible. The only thing that really matters is accuracy of the texts.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I think you've lost track of the conversation. We weren't talking about the New Covenant at that time.

Here's what you said:



Then I said:



The existence of the temple and the Jewish people in unity are, imo, the qualifications of the Jewish Messiah.

The reason that the Old Covenant and the New Covenant cannot be followed together is because the definition of the New Covenant is that the Old Covenant is dissolved. Hebrews 8:13.

The Old Covenant being dissolved doesn't mean that it's necessarily wrong to follow it. Some people grew up Jewish and believe in Jesus later on in life. Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua

  • [*]Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
    Galatians 3:13-14, Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    Acts 28:28, Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.




    [*]A new covenant. Exchanging the law for grace.
    Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
    Jeremiah 31:31-34, Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people...they shall know me...for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
    Galatians 3:22, But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    II Corinthians 5:19, To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them...

    Romans 7:6, 7 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law...
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
All I meant was that it is unjust to make judgments until you have all the facts. That is called jumping to conclusions
And the judgements made about Jews are equally unjust and are jumping to conclusions as well.
And so what if Jesus did that? If Jesus was a Messenger of God he had the authority from God to annul anything that had been revealed previously.
So far there is no credible evidence that Jesus was a Messanger of God. No one really knows what Jesus said or did. The only record of this comes from the Christian bible which is not entirely literal.
Please post the verses where Jesus said He was not going to change the law.
Matthew 5:18

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
There is really no need for a Baha’i to prove anything about all the older Manifestations of God because they were validated by Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha.
Great, then there shouldn't be any more comments about whether or not Jews accept Jesus as a Messiah.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I think you've lost track of the conversation. We weren't talking about the New Covenant at that time.

Here's what you said:



Then I said:



The existence of the temple and the Jewish people in unity are, imo, the qualifications of the Jewish Messiah.

The reason that the Old Covenant and the New Covenant cannot be followed together is because the definition of the New Covenant is that the Old Covenant is dissolved. Hebrews 8:13.

Some Jewish people believe that there will be two Messiahs. That means it's possible for the Messiah to come before Israel is fully regathered. Believing in Jesus and being Jewish existing at the same time means it's not impossible for the Old and New Covenant to exist together. The Old Testament saints believed in a coming Messiah and the New Testament saints were Jewish but had faith in Jesus.

Israel Regathered Only When Jesus Christ Returns

Believing Jews And Gentiles Are God's People

The world hates the Jewish people because God gave the world a conscience through Israel. God's Law came to the world through Israel (Romans 9:4). This is why Israel is so hated around the world.

The following Scripture evidences that Old Testament saints were saved the EXACT SAME WAY that New Testament saints are saved, that is, by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Acts 10:43, “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”

The Bible calls Israel the apple of God's eye...

"For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye." —Zechariah 2:8

God chose Abraham because He knew Abraham would raise up his children to obey God (Genesis 18:19). God called Israel the Apple of His Eye because of all that He planned to do, and has done, through the nation (Romans 9:4). However, God warned what He would do if the Jews rebelled. Several hundred years before the Jews were carried off in judgment by the Assyrians (722 BC) and by the Babylonians (586 BC), God had warned what would happen if they rebelled against God's Commandments...

Deuteronomy 28:32-37,“Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long: and there shall be no might in thine hand. The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway: So that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see. The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head. The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone. And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.”

Wow, that's horrifying! Yet, God later promised in Jeremiah to one day regather Israel...

Jeremiah 31:10, “Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.”
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I think you've lost track of the conversation. We weren't talking about the New Covenant at that time.

Here's what you said:



Then I said:



The existence of the temple and the Jewish people in unity are, imo, the qualifications of the Jewish Messiah.

The reason that the Old Covenant and the New Covenant cannot be followed together is because the definition of the New Covenant is that the Old Covenant is dissolved. Hebrews 8:13.

The third temple will be rebuilt when Jesus returns. Jerusalem third temple ‘fulfils Biblical prophecy’ of the end times – Keep The Faith ® The UK's Black and multi-ethnic Christian magazine
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I am sorry, but one has nothing to do with the other. The fact that Jesus spoke in parables and used figurative language has nothing to do with whether He fulfilled the prophecies or not.
Sure it does. If the Christian bible were literally true, then it would be more credible. Because it is not literally true, then it's less credible.
1. How does anyone really know what Moses said or did? All you have are scriptures but they were not written by Moses, so how is that different from the fact that all we have are NT scriptures that were not written by Jesus?
Because the story of Moses never includes, "Truly I tell you, you will receive anything you ask for."
As I said, the Tanach is a tiny bit more credible because it doesn't make this sort of claim that anyone can get anything they want if they believe.
2. I disagree that just because Jesus used metaphorical language that means that the texts re not evidence of what Jesus said and did. The texts might not be credible to you, but as I said before credibility is irrelevant because all people have different standards as to what is credible. The only thing that really matters is accuracy of the texts.
"Truly I tell you" is not metaphorical. It shows that the text is not accurate.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
And the judgements made about Jews are equally unjust and are jumping to conclusions as well.
So far there is no credible evidence that Jesus was a Messanger of God. No one really knows what Jesus said or did. The only record of this comes from the Christian bible which is not entirely literal.

Matthew 5:18

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Great, then there shouldn't be any more comments about whether or not Jews accept Jesus as a Messiah.

What Jesus taught was consistent with Old Testament law. Jesus said in Matthew 3;2, "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Ezekiel 33;11 says, "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
What Jesus taught was consistent with Old Testament law. Jesus said in Matthew 3;2, "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Except, the Kingdom of heaven wasn't at hand. So the part about repentance is correct, the part about the kingdom was incorrect. He was half-right and half-wrong.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Except, the Kingdom of heaven wasn't at hand. So the part about repentance is correct, the part about the kingdom was incorrect. He was half-right and half-wrong.

Jesus wasn't inconsistent because the context of that verse wasn't about the second coming. The second coming wasn't at hand because it wasn't imminent, but the spread of the gospel was at hand.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It's not a covenant if it's not legally binding.

Messianic Jews and Hebrew Christians follow holidays that are from the Old Testament. They are Jewish and Christian because of their connection to the holidays of the ancient Hebrews. The festivals were ordained by God.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Jesus wasn't inconsistent because the context of that verse wasn't about the second coming. The second coming wasn't at hand because it wasn't imminent, but the spread of the gospel was at hand.
^^ Mental gymnastics.

If Jesus said the Kingdom is at hand, but it wasn't "at hand" then he wasn't correct about what he said.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Messianic Jews and Hebrew Christians follow holidays that are from the Old Testament. They are Jewish and Christian because of their connection to the holidays of the ancient Hebrews. The festivals were ordained by God.
It's not legally binding. It's not a covenant.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It's not legally binding. It's not a covenant.

That doesn't mean it's not decently and in order that the first Christians were Jewish Christians. They believed in Jesus but kept their old ways and they worked beautifully together.
 
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