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Is according to Jews everything God's will?

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
if you didn't have the Jewish understanding of any messiah you wouldn't be able to make any future messianic concept from the text. Show me where the text refers to any future leader as "the messiah."

That's like saying two things are the same thing because they have the same name. Messianic Judaism and Christianity have the same essence but to an extent they are different faiths. Jesus Is the God of Christianity | Jewish Voice

The concept of a Jewish Christianity is foreign to Jewish People because most of them are raised with the notion that the Yeshua of the New Testament is only for Gentiles. Jonathan Bernis notes:

The lie that Jesus Christ is the God of Christianity is the concept I was raised with. For me, there were two groups of people in the world—Jews and Gentiles, or Christians (we generally perceived them to be the same). We had our God – the God of Israel – and Christians had their God, Jesus Christ, the son of Mr. and Mrs. Christ. And somehow this Jesus-God was a child who had become God.

I was also taught that Christians believe in three Gods: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This, too, is a deception and a stumbling block for Jews, who, even if not religious, know one thing: God is One.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
it means that without rabbinic interpretation, you wouldn't have anything.

There are different interpretations of the rabbis. Some accepted Yeshua as the Messiah in the beginning of Christianity, and some didnt. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

Jewish Christians (Hebrew: יהודים נוצרים‎) were the followers of a Jewish religious sect that emerged in Judea during the late Second Temple period (first-century). The sect integrated the belief of Jesus as the prophesied Messiah and his teachings into the Jewish faith, including the observance of the Jewish law. Jewish Christianity is the foundation of Early Christianity, which later developed into Christianity. Christianity started with Jewish eschatological expectations, and it developed into the worship of a deified Jesus after his earthly ministry, his crucifixion, and the post-crucifixion experiences of his followers. Modern scholarship is engaged in an ongoing debate as to the proper designation for Jesus' first followers. Many see the term Jewish Christians as anachronistic given that there is no consensus on the date of the birth of Christianity. Some modern scholars have suggested the designations "Jewish believers in Jesus" or "Jewish followers of Jesus" as better reflecting the original context.

The inclusion of non-Jews led to a growing split between Jewish Christians (i.e. the Jewish followers of Jesus) and non-Jewish Christians. From the latter, Nicene Christianity eventually arose, while mainstream Judaism developed into Rabbinic Judaism. Jewish Christians drifted apart from mainstream Judaism, eventually becoming a minority strand which had mostly disappeared by the fifth century. Jewish–Christian gospels have been lost except for fragments, so there is considerable uncertainty as to the scriptures used by this group.

The split of Christianity and Judaism took place during the first centuries CE.[1][2]While the First Jewish–Roman War and the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE were main events, the separation was a long-term process, in which the boundaries were not clear-cut.[1][2]
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
if you didn't have the Jewish understanding of any messiah you wouldn't be able to make any future messianic concept from the text. Show me where the text refers to any future leader as "the messiah."

Emmanuel means God with us. Jesus Is the God of Christianity | Jewish Voice

“The truth is,” Jonathan continues, “Jesus Christ is not the God of Christianity. He is Yeshua HaMashiach—’ ‘Jesus the Messiah.’ Christ is not His last name, but comes from the Greek word Christos, Χριστός (khrē-sto's), meaning ‘anointed.’” The word Christ holds the same meaning as the Hebrew word Mashiach, or Messiah, and is His title.


Hundreds of years before Yeshua was born, the Old Testament (or “old covenant”) proclaimed the coming of what today is sometimes known by some as Jewish Christianity, and more accurately termed Messianic Judaism, in which Jews would receive the Christ – the Messiah. The prophet Jeremiah, in verses 31:1-14, tells of a new covenant (the “New Testament”) that would be made with the House of Israel and Judah. This covenant would be different from the Mosaic covenant. God would forgive our sins and remember them no more.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
That's like saying two things are the same thing because they have the same name.
Well, since I never said that, I'm not sure your point, but it is interesting you say that because I'm not the one insisting that "Messianic Judaism" is at all like "Judaism" even though they have the same name.
Messianic Judaism and Christianity have the same essence but to an extent they are different faiths.
And neither is Judaism at all.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Well, since I never said that, I'm not sure your point, but it is interesting you say that because I'm not the one insisting that "Messianic Judaism" is at all like "Judaism" even though they have the same name.

And neither is Judaism at all.

That's a technicality. That's like saying that the first Christians weren't Jews because today they are classified as different religions.

What do you mean neither is Judaism at all?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
That's a technicality. That's like saying that the first Christians weren't Jews because today they are classified as different religions.
No, the first Christians ceased being Jews when they accepted an idea which was antithetical to Judaism.
What do you mean neither is Judaism at all?
They are simple words. Neither of them is any form of Judaism, regardless of its name.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I see this as pretty simple -- take out all the Jewish explanations of the text. Just start with a literally translated text of the Hebrew bible, and find any mention of a future messiah. If you don't, and you rely on the Jewish notion that any future leader will be a messiah, then you have to see that all your understanding is predicated on the Jewish interpretation and you just draw a line at a certain point and have to stick on your own replacement interpretation while not rejecting the fundamental Jewish idea.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
There have been many false messiahs. More Jews followed Shabbtai Tzvi. Some rabbis thought Bar Kochva was the messiah. Just like the Jews who followed Jesus, they were wrong.

That doesn't change that there are different interpretations of the rabbis, and thus one cannot use Rabbinic Judaism or the Judaism of the Pharisees to say that Jewish Christianity came from those beliefs and thus is less valid.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
That doesn't change that there are different interpretations of the rabbis, and thus one cannot use Rabbinic Judaism or the Judaism of the Pharisees to say that Jewish Christianity came from those beliefs and thus is less valid.
I say that "Jewish Christianity" relied on those beliefs and then twisted them and is less valid the same way that I say that Sabbateanism is less valid. I also say that Karaite belief is less valid. Without the foundational rabbinic interpretations other off shoots would not have anything to say. Then to split away from those interpretations is to be generationally removed and less valid.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
yes, that's exactly what I would say. Though to put it more exactly, finding support for the idea of 2 comings after Jesus died was only made possible through confirmation bias.

its also possible interpreting the texts a certain way has a confirmation bias. It's like the show Messiah. It doesn't talk about Jesus being God and Savior, but it talks about Jesus as a leader of a political group.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
yes, that's exactly what I would say. Though to put it more exactly, finding support for the idea of 2 comings after Jesus died was only made possible through confirmation bias.

I believe that the cryptic-ness of the belief of the Jewish Messiah (two Messiahs, the Messiah fulfills the prophecies in one coming) makes it doubtful. It seems to me that the belief in the Jewish Messiah is akin to the Islamic Jesus Isa, who is a prophet and not a Savior.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
LOL, I keep telling you, my friend, that you cannot be of the Jewish religion and believe that God is a man, or abandon the centrality of obedience and trade it for the centrality of faith apart from works. IOW you cannot, cannot, cannot violate core Jewish teachings and claim your religion is Judaism.

Job had a Christian belief of the Messiah being a mediator. He said that there is no daysman between him and God , in Job 9:33.

Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
John the Baptist prepared the way of the Lord in the wilderness. The meaning of life is not in religious rituals and following laws, but in having a relationship with God and putting God first and making him a part of your life. John the Baptist preached that. The Top 40 Messianic Prophecies
You keep including your link to "the top 40 Messianic Prophecies." Virtually all of these are not Messianic Prophecies. There are not 40 Messianic prophecies.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
If a judge let a criminal go free, they would not be a just judge. But if a lawyer agreed to take their place, they could go free.

Each person pays for their own crimes, but if a lawyer agreed to take their place, the lawyer would bear their crimes.
A lawyer cannot agree to take the place of a criminal. It is unjust, and just doesn't happen. Why do you keep bringing up this absurd theory?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
How could God be our Savior without dying for our sins? A judge who lets a criminal go would not be a just judge.

Jews sin and fall short like everyone else. Either Yeshua is the Savior of Israel or he's the Savior of no one.
Why does God need to do anything in order to qualify to be our savior? He is GOD.

Jesus is the Savior of no one.
 
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