How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[CG Didymus]

Trying to predict the year when Christ would return the way you have been doing is an exercise in futility.

I'm not trying to predict the year Jesus will return. I'm questioning Baha'is using William Miller's calculations.

So, again, why start the 2300 day/year prophecy in 457BC? I'm sure you've read the context, so tell me how you kick everything back to they year when the decree to rebuild Jerusalem happened?

No, to be honest, I have never read that chapter about Daniel about the 2300 years with any serious intent, so I am the wrong Baha'i to ask.

It's only one chapter. It makes me think that some Baha'is only follow what their religion says and don't care what or why the other religions say. Yet, you debate the crap out of all these things about the Bible and the Baha'i Faith. And I know the first thing you'll say, "I don't debate. I'm just responding to posts." Well, I think that is debatable. Anyway, on to your next post.

 

[CG Didymus]

A Jew would have to recognize Jesus as the only true Messenger of God in order to become a Christian.
A Jew would have to recognize Muhammad as the latest a Messenger of God in order to become a Muslim.
A Jew would have to recognize Baha'u'llah as the latest a Messenger of God in order to become a Baha'i.

How woukld a Jew do that? They would have to read the New Testament/Qur'an/Writings of Baha'u'llah, but first they would have to believe it is possible that the Torah is not the ONLY Word of God, and that is where the roadblock is. Unless Jewish people are willing to consider an interpretation of the Torah other than their own, they will never believe anything other than what they believe. It is ALL about that interpretation -- ALL.

The same concept applies to Christians considering any religion besides Christianity - It is ALL about that interpretation of the Bible -- ALL.

Let's say you were a Jew... What is it that would convince you that Jesus is the Messiah and become a Christian?

Let's just simplify it. Let's just take Christianity. I asked what would convince you? So you're a Jew and know the Bible. Then a Christian missionary comes knocking on you door and tells you about Jesus. They tell you he is God in the flesh. That is a part of a Trinity, The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They tell you that he died for your sins. They tell you that without accepting Jesus' sacrifice, you will die in your sins and God will have no other choice but to send you to hell... and on and on. So out of all those things, plus they give you a New Testament to read, what is it that would be enough to convince you to convert to Christianity?

 

[Trailblazer]

Ya could have fooled me. He will come to you from Assyria... He is the promised Comforter. He is the third "Woe" etc. etc. [

But you are the one who keeps asking. Stop asking and we will stop talking about these prophecies. Fair is fair.

Hmmm? People will say there are problems even though they have been "clearly" fulfilled? But no one, even Baha'is, can't prove them?

Some prophecies are nonspecific that could mean more than one thing, but other prophecies are more specific and we can prove that those prophecies have been fulfilled by citing history and geography. But that is never good enough, because you will always nitpick the prophecies.

But, like I've said before, I'm no Bible scholar and I find problems with the Baha'i interpretations all over the place. But it's understandable Baha'is are happy with their interpretations and don't take other interpretations as being correct. Only problem, to say that no one can prove any prophecy's interpretation is correct is impossible, doesn't help. It makes them virtually useless.

So what if you find ‘problems’ with the Baha’i interpretations, does that make you right and the Baha’is wrong? You can believe that if you want to, but that won’t make you right.

I can prove they are correct but you will never accept that proof. Years and years can go by and you will still be saying there are ‘problems’ with the Baha’i interpretations of the same prophecies. I could go over those prophecies and explain why I do not SEE any problems but you will not accept that, so why should I take the time to do that? This is just a never-ending merry-go-round leading nowhere.

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not know what Baha'u'llah said but as Baha'u'llah's appointed interpreter and Centre of His Covenant, this is what Abdu'l-Baha said.

From the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets unto Moses, may peace be upon Him, and in that which He was commanded to do.... The glorious Book, the Mighty Decree, is what was in the Tablets which Moses, upon Him be peace, brought from Mount Sinai, and that which He proclaimed unto the Children of Israel, in accordance with the explicit text of those Tablets.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

There is no 'alternate interpretation' that I am aware of. What I meant by what I said to CG Didymus is that Jews would have to be willing to interpret the Torah 'differently' than they presently do. For one thing, they would have to be willing to consider the possibility that many of the prophecies for the coming of the Messiah do not mean what they believe they mean, thus the Messiah will not be who they believe he will be and he will not do exactly what they believe he will do.

Do Baha'is believe the "stories" in the Bible to be literally true and historically accurate? No, I don't think Baha'is do. Do Baha'is believe the Laws are eternal and meant to be followed forever? No, don't Baha'is believe all the Laws given to the Jews were only temporary and that when the next "manifestation" comes, he will bring a new set of laws. Now Baha'is believe that every major religion was true and sent from the same One True God, the same God of the Bible. So along with Judaism being true and from God, so were Hinduism, Buddhism, and Zoroastrianism. And then later, so was Christianity, Islam and the Babi religion and now the Baha'i Faith. So a Jew should have accepted each one of these religions, the ones that came before and those that came after just as true as theirs... and actually, to have left their Jewish religious practices and have followed the truth of Jesus' teachings, then the teachings of Muhammad, then for a few years the teachings of The Bab and now they should leave all those teachings behind and follow the new teachings and laws brought by Baha'u'llah. And, as you've made it so clear, they shouldn't use prophecy to determine any of this. Right? I don't think so. I think you'll have to try and show how it is so "clear" that prophecies support all of this.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not trying to predict the year Jesus will return. I'm questioning Baha'is using William Miller's calculations.

You can read the calculations Abdu'l-Baha made as well as we can.

10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL

There is nothing the Baha'is can add to that. If you question the calculations you are free to tear them apart and try to prove they are wrong by reading the Bible, but Baha'is know they are right because we know what happened in 1844, so it does not really matter how the year was calculated.

It's only one chapter. It makes me think that some Baha'is only follow what their religion says and don't care what or why the other religions say.

I might read it, but I have no need to read that because anyone who wants to know about that prophecy can read it for themselves. I have been a Baha'i for 50 years, and my belief was never contingent upon the Bible, which I never even read one page of till eight years ago.

Yet, you debate the crap out of all these things about the Bible and the Baha'i Faith.

Show me where I am debating with any Christians other than Brian2, but we are old buddies from way back on other forums, and we have an understanding, so it is not really a debate, it is an ongoing conversation, and it is not contentious.

 

[CG Didymus]

So, again, why start the 2300 day/year prophecy in 457BC? I'm sure you've read the context, so tell me how you kick everything back to they year when the decree to rebuild Jerusalem happened?

And yet again.

No, to be honest, I have never read that chapter about Daniel about the 2300 years with any serious intent, so I am the wrong Baha'i to ask.

Yet, you found that Antiochus did put a stop to the daily sacrifice. Sure sounds like he fits the prophecy.

But you are the one who keeps asking. Stop asking and we will stop talking about these prophecies. Fair is fair.

Baha'is say that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all prophecies of all the major religions. It Baha'is that make this claim, and then hate it when asked questions about some of them?

I can prove they are correct

You can prove it? Then, other times you say no one can prove any of them? But yes, you can prove it to yourself and then refuse to take a serious look at other interpretations or to even look at what the context around the one or two "prophetic" verses are talking about. It's a simple questions.... Why start the 2300 days from 457BC? The context seems to fit this guy Antiochus putting a stop to the daily sacrifice. We know when that happened. What happened 2300 evening and mornings, or days or years or whatever after that? Anything significant? We all know why Baha'is want to start the 2300 days in 457BC, because then they can change it to years and make it come out to 1844. But are these lunar years like Baha'is do with the 1260 day/year prophecies? Or, this time it's solar years? Or, you're the wrong one to ask, because you really don't know or care? And I'll accept that as an answer.

 

[Trailblazer]

Let's just simplify it. Let's just take Christianity. I asked what would convince you? So you're a Jew and know the Bible. Then a Christian missionary comes knocking on you door and tells you about Jesus. They tell you he is God in the flesh. That is a part of a Trinity, The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They tell you that he died for your sins. They tell you that without accepting Jesus' sacrifice, you will die in your sins and God will have no other choice but to send you to hell... and on and on. So out of all those things, plus they give you a New Testament to read, what is it that would be enough to convince you to convert to Christianity?

First off, I would have to consider the possibility that maybe I am wrong about the Torah being the only valid scripture. Then I would have to read the New Testament for myself and see what it says. I would not believe anything just because Christians told me it is true. After reading the New Testament I would either be convinced or not.

 

[CG Didymus]

You can read the calculations Abdu'l-Baha made as well as we can.

So he starts it in 457BC and that settles it? Great. That's what I get from Christians too. "The Bible says it. I believe it. And that settles it." Now it's, "Baha'u'llah, Abdul Baha, Shoghi Effendi, The UHJ says it. I believe it and that's that." Just great.

 

[Trailblazer]

So a Jew should have accepted each one of these religions, the ones that came before and those that came after just as true as theirs... and actually, to have left their Jewish religious practices and have followed the truth of Jesus' teachings, then the teachings of Muhammad, then for a few years the teachings of The Bab and now they should leave all those teachings behind and follow the new teachings and laws brought by Baha'u'llah. And, as you've made it so clear, they shouldn't use prophecy to determine any of this. Right? I don't think so. I think you'll have to try and show how it is so "clear" that prophecies support all of this.

A Jew should only do what they choose to do.... that is why we have free will.

I do not have to show the Jews anything, because I am not trying to convince anyone that the Baha'i Faith is true.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'is say that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all prophecies of all the major religions. It Baha'is that make this claim, and then hate it when asked questions about some of them?

I only hate it when I am asked the same questions over and over and over and over again, and I answer them and my answer is never good enough. What I hate is going in circles and ending up nowhere.

Or, you're the wrong one to ask, because you really don't know or care? And I'll accept that as an answer.

That is the answer.

 

[CG Didymus]

First off, I would have to consider the possibility that maybe I am wrong about the Torah being the only valid scripture. Then I would have to read the New Testament for myself and see what it says. I would not believe anything just because Christians told me it is true. After reading the New Testament I would either be convinced or not.

Thanks, But we both know that we shouldn't believe what a Christian tells us. That is only one Christian sect's interpretation of what the Bible says. Then we'd read some translation of the NT. On our own we'd have no clue what all that stuff means. So then what? We could go to different Christian Churches and hear what they say. We pick one of them over the others. Most aren't going to follow the Laws, not even the Sabbath. They tell us sin entered the world through Adam and all that. Then they tell us about how Jesus rose from the dead. They tell us about hell and Satan. We finally decide that this does sounds so true, and we can't believe we've been following the "old" covenant all these years and we get baptized and join the Church. Then a year later a JW knocks on our door or a Mormon and tells us how that sect is totally wrong. And they'd probably be right. Which sect of Christianity has it right? Maybe none. So did we leave Judaism? By what Baha'is say and know about the different sects of Christianity, nothing that they teach should convince a Jew or anyone that they have the Truth or are teaching the Truth. If we're going to be wrong, we might as well stay a Jew. Of course, from a Baha'is perspective, if we meet a Baha'i, that would be different. A Jew or any "spiritual" person should join, because the Baha'i Faith is the Truth

 

[CG Didymus]

A Jew should only do what they choose to do.... that is why we have free will.

I do not have to show the Jews anything, because I am not trying to convince anyone that the Baha'i Faith is true.

No, if the Baha'i Faith is the truth for today, then every one of us should join up. It is, supposedly, God's word for today. It is the medicine a sick world needs to get well. Free will? As if people know enough about what is true to make the right choice? Who, other than Baha'is, has made the right choice? Don't some Baha'is say that those of us that aren't Baha'is are wandering around in the darkness and haven't seen the light of the new day that is dawning? But, regardless of what you think you are doing, Baha'is, one way or another, make it very obvious, all the other religions have had their day. They are no longer relevant. In fact, you might have even said things like that. But, I know, it wasn't to "show" or "convince" anyone. It is up to them to see for themselves that the Baha'i Faith is The Truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, if the Baha'i Faith is the truth for today, then every one of us should join up. It is, supposedly, God's word for today. It is the medicine a sick world needs to get well. Free will? As if people know enough about what is true to make the right choice?

I believe all of that but I am not going to say what other people should do.
If people want to know if the Baha'i Faith is the truth, they can use their free will to investigate it.
Most religious people don't bother because they are so sure their religion is true. That is their choice.
Or if they are an atheist they are sure that no religion is true. That is their choice.

 

[CG Didymus]

This doesn't sound better, it just sounds different.

A bird in the hand... means it's better to appreciate what you have instead of waiting for something better? If Bahaullah is the bird in the hand, and the Jewish messiah is 2 birds in the bush, doesn't that mean that the version of the Jewish messiah is more desirable?

The "bird" in their bush, though, is claiming to be the promised one of every major religion, including Judaism. They say, that he has brought a message from God that will bring peace and unity to the world. Will it? Can it? Is he The Messiah? Of course then you'd have to believe that Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab were all "Messiahs" and Baha'u'llah is The Messiah that brings all the world together as one. Which is fine with me. But how would we know for sure. So I question them usually about prophecies that they say Baha'u'llah has fulfilled and I don't get very good answers from them. But you know how that goes. Christians do the same thing. The usual one I ask them is about a "virgin" born child. I ask them how do the rest of the verses fit in with it being about Jesus?

Now one thing I believe for sure, for those that believe and follow most all religions, their religion is going to work for them. The Baha'i Faith works for them. When I hung around Baha'is, though, a big part of what they did was "teach" the Faith. And the main thing they are teaching is that the "promised" one has come.

 

[Trailblazer]

They say, that he has brought a message from God that will bring peace and unity to the world. Will it? Can it? Is he The Messiah? Of course then you'd have to believe that Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab were all "Messiahs" and Baha'u'llah is The Messiah that brings all the world together as one.

One small correction: They would only have to accept that Jesus and Baha'u'llah were Messiahs; Jesus was a Messiah and Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah of the latter days that brings all the world together as one.. Muhammad and the Bab were not Messiahs, they were Messengers of God (Manifestations of God).

 

[CG Didymus]

One small correction: They would only have to accept that Jesus and Baha'u'llah were Messiahs; Jesus was a Messiah and Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah of the latter days that brings all the world together as one.. Muhammad and the Bab were not Messiahs, they were Messengers of God (Manifestations of God).

I thought "messiah" meant the same as "Christ" which I thought meant "anointed one", so Muhammad and The Bab weren't "anointed" by God? Or am I wrong about the meaning of "Messiah"?

 

[dybmh]

It certainly does depend upon a lot more than that.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

I'm looking at the William Sears book. I have a question. Page 127 says: "
Many Bible scholars in the millennial days were seeking the Messiah by
the title ‘the Glory of God’."

Can you find a source to back this up?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies for the Messiah as written in the Bible and Tanakh.

We discussed this at length, Trailblazer. The Baha'u'llah did not fulfill the prophecies of the Tanakh, just as Jesus did not.

 

[Trailblazer]

I thought "messiah" meant the same as "Christ" which I thought meant "anointed one", so Muhammad and The Bab weren't "anointed" by God? Or am I wrong about the meaning of "Messiah"?

I did not know what the Bible says about the anointed one, so I looked that up.

Does Messiah mean anointed one?

The Hebrew word "Mashiach," meaning Messiah, means "the one anointed with oil." The custom of anointing with oil is a ritual act designed to elevate those designated for priestly, royal or sometimes even prophetic roles (such as the prophet Elisha).

The image of the Messiah in Judaism and Christianity
That is not the same as what Baha'is believe about the Messiah. I go by what Abdu'l-Baha said, and he referred to two Messiahs, Jesus and Baha'u'llah.

"The Book of Isaiah announces that the Messiah will conquer the East and the West, and all nations of the world will come under His shadow, that His Kingdom will be established, that He will come from an unknown place, that the sinners will be judged, and that justice will prevail to such a degree that the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and the kid, the sucking child and the asp, shall all gather at one spring, and in one meadow, and one dwelling. 4 The first coming was also under these conditions, though outwardly none of them came to pass. Therefore, the Jews rejected Christ, and, God forbid! called the Messiah masíkh, 5 considered Him to be the destroyer of the edifice of God, regarded Him as the breaker of the Sabbath and the Law, and sentenced Him to death. Nevertheless, each one of these conditions had a signification that the Jews did not understand; therefore, they were debarred from perceiving the truth of Christ.

The second coming of Christ also will be in like manner: the signs and conditions which have been spoken of all have meanings, and are not to be taken literally. Among other things it is said that the stars will fall upon the earth. The stars are endless and innumerable, and modern mathematicians have established and proved scientifically that the globe of the sun is estimated to be about one million and a half times greater than the earth, and each of the fixed stars to be a thousand times larger than the sun. If these stars were to fall upon the surface of the earth, how could they find place there? It would be as though a thousand million of Himalaya mountains were to fall upon a grain of mustard seed. According to reason and science this thing is quite impossible. What is even more strange is that Christ said: “Perhaps I shall come when you are yet asleep, for the coming of the Son of man is like the coming of a thief.” 6 Perhaps the thief will be in the house, and the owner will not know it.

It is clear and evident that these signs have symbolic signification, and that they are not literal. They are fully explained in the Kitáb-i-Íqán. Refer to it.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 110-112

From: 26: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AND THE DAY OF JUDGMENT

 

[Skywalker]

We discussed this at length, Trailblazer. The Baha'u'llah did not fulfill the prophecies of the Tanakh, just as Jesus did not.

The Bahuallah didn't return in 1844. We would have his kingdom on earth if he returned then.