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Christians. Heaven and hell

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
You are very honest indeed (admitting "stealing"). I remember from your previous thread mentioning "you never lied"

Haha. Just what I remember as an adult. As a teen, well....

I remember a nice story. There was a thief who met a Master asking about Heaven.
The Master told him "I only ask from you to stop lying from now on. You can continue stealing, as long as you speak the truth".

So, if this story is true then you (@Unveiled Artist ) have secured a place in Heaven.

This is cute. I remember in a movie, I think Titanic, where Cal accused Jack of being an "honest thief." Would stealing be considered lying?

Note: Nice new Avatar-picture you have

Thanks

Some interesting links.

Orishas
Ochún
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I "stole" this from another thread in hopes to get a straight forward answer.

If you believe that we all deserve hell (separation from God) because of adam and eve, how does it sit with you thousands of kids who die will not be with God?

I'm assuming JW doesn't believe in universal salvation so I'm especially interested in what they say "too."

On that note do muslims who wish to converse as well, and bahai believe in universal salvation (union with God).

This is going by Bible, quran, and bahai scrpitures. Please include your opinions and be willing to discuss them.

First you must answer, "if we all deserve Hell, why does God show mercy to some"? How does it sit with you to say that anyone will get to Heaven?
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
In christian belief, free will is the choice whether to believe or reject god. That's not possible if one doesn't believe god exist. That's what the age of accountability is really. Since children are not born god believers, I'd assume they'd go to hell even if they heard the word.
So then free will is ONLY about choosing to believe in god?

How does that work for those who are not children, yet do not believe in god?
they have no free will?
Only theists can have free will?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
So then free will is ONLY about choosing to believe in god?

How does that work for those who are not children, yet do not believe in god?
they have no free will?
Only theists can have free will?

Well, non-theist will be separated from god forever. It shouldn't be an issue, though since we're (non-believers) aren't under christian's god edict. I think Catholicism believe children will go to heaven since they are baptized as infants and have purgatory.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
“Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings.”

(Shoghi Effendi)

I was reading the bahai question/answer. What is the determining factor that separates god from adults non-believers?

I know sin temporarily separates, but in christianity there's a "unforgivable sin." Is that the case in bahai?
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Well, non-theist will be separated from god forever. It shouldn't be an issue, though since we're (non-believers) aren't under christian's god edict. I think Catholicism believe children will go to heaven since they are baptized as infants and have purgatory.
How does this address the post it was in reply to?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I "stole" this from another thread in hopes to get a straight forward answer.
a respectable play.......

I suspect heaven and hell are nigh close to each other

a parable describes a moment when one suffering in hell.....
would be close enough to ask an angel to in turn ask someone in heaven
for a cool drink of water

and the immediate response......nay
for there is a great divide between us

SO.....a great divide?
yet close enough to converse
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Haha. Just what I remember as an adult. As a teen, well....
Hahahaha
I originally added this in brackets (as an adult), but I removed that part
But you are very honest, so you correct me for failing to add that part:D

This is cute. I remember in a movie, I think Titanic, where Cal accused Jack of being an "honest thief." Would stealing be considered lying?
Not according to the writer of the Ramayana (Hindu scripture), the writer used to be a so called criminal, and the Master only asked him to stop lying and repeat the Name of Rama. Doing this he later became the well known writer of the Ramayana Scripture

Suppose you tell your mother "I have stolen money". But you did not steal money. That would mean you are not a thief, but you are liar:D

IF you rob a bank. When asked "where did you get the money" you reply "I robbed a bank". That means you are a bank robber, but not a liar
(And when lucky they might reply "aha, that's a good joke, and you get away with it;)")

Some interesting links.

Orishas
Ochún
Thank you
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...If you believe that we all deserve hell (separation from God) because of adam and eve, how does it sit with you thousands of kids who die will not be with God?...

Interesting, if some believe so, because according to the Bible, death is the wage of sin and eternal life is a gift for righteous. And so, no one gets hell because of Adam and Eve, but because of their own unrighteousness.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Children hit, yell at their parents, and so forth. So, as an adult, these same things, I'd assume, wouldn't determine the eternal relationship one has with god.
Of course that would not determine the eternal relationship one has with God....
Adults do a lot of that too, but that does not mean that are not close to God.
I am known for being angry at God a lot, but given the degree of my suffering I am sure God understands and forgives.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
So then free will is ONLY about choosing to believe in god?

Yes. According to christian belief it's between rejection or acceptence.

How does that work for those who are not children, yet do not believe in god?
they have no free will?
Only theists can have free will?

It's "taught" that non-believers have free will too but we reject their gods grace.

Going back to the children, I'd say they're not under gods grace of salvation since they couldn't choose to reject. I assume all who don't have the mental ability to accept will die just as children.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Interesting, if some believe so, because according to the Bible, death is the wage of sin and eternal life is a gift for righteous. And so, no one gets hell because of Adam and Eve, but because of their own unrighteousness.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23


Hmm. So if a person on earth never sins (which I believe is possible), than he is righteous like Christ and will be with god?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I guess your beliefs are not based on the Bible because the Bible says ALL have sinned.

I replied to 1213. Since all has sinned and children are sinners because of their parents, they should go to hell given they haven't accept jesus to be saved.

How do you feel about that?

Also. Do you have the correct interpretation of the bible? I know many Christians tend to think they do.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Putting the terminology aside for a minute. That's not necessarily the point. Are children saved by virtue of being children or are they separated from god after death for eternity?

God is the judge of a person's heart.....no righteous person will lose their lives by God's hand. But God has his criteria for salvation and what he considers as "righteousness". We can't tell the judge to carry out justice......his justice is perfect, based on his stated laws, not on sentimentality. This is a God who knows the heart, not just the actions. It matter more to him what our motivation is, not the performance we carry out.

The usage of universal salvation, heaven, and hell et cetera are used to make this point. Obeying rules and the obligations a christian has to god and scripture as an adult isn't related to the question.

Since Jesus himself used the flood of Noah's day to illustrate the situation that we would face again, (Matthew 24:37-39) how many children survived the flood? Why do you think only Noah and his family survived, when everyone outside the ark, perished? Were the people prevented from coming onto the ark? Did God prohibit any of them from saving themselves? Noah was called a "preacher of righteousness" in an unrighteous world....(2 Peter 2:5) so they knew what the message was...but they just chose to ignore it in much the same way as people do today.
He said "they took no notice until the flood came and swept them all away".....and we believe that it will be that way again with the nay-sayers and unbelievers.

Ignoring Noah's warning and treating him with disrespect is what claimed the lives of those people, as well as their children.
So we need to put the blame where it lies. The invitation was open to all, and for a very long time, but nobody took it up, choosing instead to stay with the violence and immorality to which they had become accustomed.

Violence and immorality can become accepted when people are exposed to it for a long time.....much of today's violence and immorality is served virtually, via the entertainment media. Children are raised with very violent video games and movies where no imagination is needed as the carnage and immoral conduct is portrayed very graphically and accepted as "normal"....just harmless entertainment. Don't we have to ask why humans have such an insatiable appetite for those things?
If we have a sense of morality like no other creatures, is that appetite, normal or abnormal? The Bible calls that appetite..."sin" and it is in all of us. But its up to us whether we treat it as "normal" or not.

The apostle Paul also explained an interesting fact regarding a child's standing with God....
"....If any brother has an unbelieving wife and she is agreeable to staying with him, let him not leave her; 13 and if a woman has an unbelieving husband and he is agreeable to staying with her, let her not leave her husband. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified in relation to his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified in relation to the brother; otherwise, your children would be unclean, but now they are holy." (1 Corinthians 7:12-14)

If a Christian has an unbelieving mate, God views them as "sanctified" because of their children. This means that there is an age of accountability where children are concerned.....but it is not numerical, it is an age where a child can choose to worship God on their own. Spiritual maturity knows no age. So, before that time they are on their parent's 'ticket' (so to speak) and will be saved (or not saved) by virtue of their believing parents' standing with God.

Does that answer your question?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
God is the judge of a person's heart.....no righteous person will lose their lives by God's hand. But God has his criteria for salvation and what he considers as "righteousness". We can't tell the judge to carry out justice......his justice is perfect, based on his stated laws, not on sentimentality. This is a God who knows the heart, not just the actions. It matter more to him what our motivation is, not the performance we carry out.

If a Christian has an unbelieving mate, God views them as "sanctified" because of their children. This means that there is an age of accountability where children are concerned.....but it is not numerical, it is an age where a child can choose to worship God on their own. Spiritual maturity knows no age. So, before that time they are on their parent's 'ticket' (so to speak) and will be saved (or not saved) by virtue of their believing parents' standing with God.

Does that answer your question?

Just the last part here. Not sure the other references.

So if their parents did not believe in God and they were under age to worship, they would be separated from god by death?
 
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