• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Should Churches be Allowed to Legally Discriminate Against Hiring LGBTQ Persons?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
For Christians, the Bible is the word of God and is factual. Based on this belief they have the right because God told them so. If they are wrong which I can prove; their claim against Gays and Lesbians are flawed.
But again: you want a secular court ruling on what is and isn't proper for Christians to believe?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
If you argue yes, then should liberal churches be legally allowed to discriminate by not hiring straights?
I would say in a strict sense a religion should not be forced to do anything against its theology in terms of pastoral or cleric duties.

However they should not discriminate in areas not directly related with the theology like administration, upkeep of facilities etc.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Yup. It's also basically the "core" issue behind stores wanting to ban LGBT. In some places of the country the choices are very few and far between. In some parts of the country the market doesn't offer protections or corrections but rewards those who discriminate.
And not everyone is able to just pack up and move.
Remember the argument that its privately owned? Those rules don't apply.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Should Apple have to hire a Microsoft employee? Should the US Army have to hire a
member of the Chinese Communist Party? Should the NRA have to hire an anti-gun
lobby member? Should Greenpeace have to hire a spokesman for the oil lobby?
Those factors could all present legitimate conflicts of interest and all relate to chosen actions or political positions. Being homosexual is a fundamental characteristic and doesn't automatically pose a conflict of interest in working for a church. An individual homosexual might also have specific opinions or positions that makes them unsuitable for a particular job but they can't be dismissed out of hand on the basis of their sexual orientation (or presumed sexual orientation, as if sometimes the case) alone.

Should Jehovah Witnesses allow an atheist to join their organization?
Joining an organisation (essentially a club) is district from formal employment.

Isn't all this about the right of association?
No, this is about employment law. It is distinct from free association in people's private life (employees and employers).
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Not for me, but it would be for certain churches.

But I'm with the other Father Heathen ... because no LGBQT in their right mind would want to work for such a group, the question becomes moot.
Out of the ~4,800 taxpayer-funded schools in my province, about 1,500 are Catholic.

Full-time teaching jobs are hard to get. It certainly limits a person's opportunity if a third of the teaching jobs are off-limits to them.

And while they're waiting for that full-time spot, it's a lot easier for a young teacher to get by if they're on the supply list for both of the school boards in their area.

... so in this case, saying that LGBTQ people should just not work for an organization that disapproves of them effectively amounts to saying that LGBTQ people need not become teachers unless they have some other source of income to sustain them for potentially a long time.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Discrimination isn't a belief; it is an action.
I know.

I'm talking about what happens when we carve out special exemptions in secular law for religious groups acting on their religious beliefs: it necessarily ends up with secular courts ruling on the validity of religious beliefs.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Remember the argument that its privately owned? Those rules don't apply.
I firmly and strongly believe if you serve the public, you serve the public.
I'm also very aware of the short supply of services and employment in rural settings.
Ideally people wouldn't have to even consider working for anyone sternly opposed to them, but that's not the world we live in.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Should Apple have to hire a Microsoft employee? Should the US Army have to hire a
member of the Chinese Communist Party?
Do employees of anti-LGBTQ churches have access to secrets that they want to keep from LGBTQ people?

Should the NRA have to hire an anti-gun
lobby member? Should Greenpeace have to hire a spokesman for the oil lobby?
Not really the same thing.

Should
Jehovah Witnesses allow an atheist to join their organization?
Membership and employment are different things.
Isn't all this about the right of association?
No, it isn't. Employment by an organization like a church isn't the same thing as membership in the church.
 

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Why only churches? Why do you not mention mosques, Hindu temples?

So you mean that all religions can discriminate except for Christians?

What is the logic of that?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
No, it isn't. Employment by an organization like a church isn't the same thing as membership in the church.
Sadly, in America, it is believed the employee will serve as a representative of sorts, and employees will not engage in behaviors that would "bring shame to the company." (Taken from a couple employee handbooks I've had).
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Why only churches? Why do you not mention mosques, Hindu temples?

So you mean that all religions can discriminate except for Christians?

What is the logic of that?
I think it means that, by and large, it's Christian churches that do the discriminating.
 

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
If you argue yes, then should liberal churches be legally allowed to discriminate by not hiring straights?

Why only churches? Why do you not mention mosques, Hindu temples?

So you mean that all religions can discriminate except for Christians?

What is the logic of that?
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Why only churches? Why do you not mention mosques, Hindu temples?

So you mean that all religions can discriminate except for Christians?

What is the logic of that?

Oversight on my part. But to be fair, it is Christian churches who are making the most noise on this topic.
 

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Watching the news and talking to church folk I know.
Hmm.. it is strange the news takes up that Christians discriminate against gays when in reality it happens in almost all religious circles and religious houses of worship including Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Baha'is, Hindus
 
Top