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Why Would Christians Worship a God Who Clearly Wouldn't Lift A Finger For Them?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why would you want to force yourself to love a God you don't want to love??????
I don't want to love God, but I try to, because I believe it is the right thing to do and in my best interest....
But I cannot force myself, I can only try.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

I do not consider that fair, that I have to love God first before His love can reach me, but I am not the one calling the shots.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Yep.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.
Salvation by faith was a doctrine of necessity. Since God doesn't intervene in human affairs, what were the Christian church leaders going to produce to show their faith was the true faith? Nothing. So they invented the doctrine of,"I don't have to produce evidence for my god to you. My god wants you to believe without seeing any evidence." And that became the cornerstone doctrine of salvation--"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Salvation by faith was a doctrine of necessity. Since God doesn't intervene in human affairs, what were the Christian church leaders going to produce to show their faith was the true faith? Nothing. So they invented the doctrine of,"I don't have to produce evidence for my god to you. My god wants you to believe without seeing any evidence." And that became the cornerstone doctrine of salvation--"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"
Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

With all due respect, I don't think that is what the verse above means, but of course I am interpreting it from a different angle, as a Baha'i.

I do not think that God expects us to believe in Him without any evidence because that would be unjust of God to expect that. It would also be foolish to believe that God exists without any evidence, and God did not give us a rational mind so we would act foolishly.
.
So what I think that verse means is that we have to seek God and if we seek we will be rewarded by finding the evidence..... I think we have to believe that God might exist before we find the evidence because otherwise we will not be willing to earnestly seek God.

If one says that God does not exist because God does not prove it to me, as some atheists say, that is not earnestly seeking. That is demanding that God operate on your terms, but the omnipotent God does not take orders from humans, He only does what he chooses.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Yes, but how did we survive? Another question; woman didn't just start ovulating and then giving birth. It had to evolve. That might have taken a million years. What were we doing in the meantime to produce progeny, splitting in two like a cell?
That question does not even make sense. You know that sexual reproduction was a thing long before humans evolved, right?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Yes, but how did we survive? Another question; woman didn't just start ovulating and then giving birth. It had to evolve. That might have taken a million years. What were we doing in the meantime to produce progeny, splitting in two like a cell?

Odd idea. The ancestors of you and me have
been ovulating and reproducing mote over less the same way for hundreds of millions of yeards
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
The "bible" is a blueprint for things like what i
mentioned. You are right, its far from utopia.

Science has progressed despite not because of Christianity.

Claiming the Bible did a blueprint for science
Is too ridiculous.

Im not speaking about the Bible. I’m speaking about the Most Holy Book - Charter of the future world civilization.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
That question does not even make sense. You know that sexual reproduction was a thing long before humans evolved, right?

Of course it makes sense, but not if you're a believer in Adam and Eve. If you're a believer in natural selection and evolution then what was the method of reproduction among the earliest mammals? They didn't just pop up with penis and vagina and sperm. There had to be hundreds of thousands of years evolution of the reproduction system.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

With all due respect, I don't think that is what the verse above means, but of course I am interpreting it from a different angle, as a Baha'i.

I do not think that God expects us to believe in Him without any evidence because that would be unjust of God to expect that. It would also be foolish to believe that God exists without any evidence, and God did not give us a rational mind so we would act foolishly.
.
So what I think that verse means is that we have to seek God and if we seek we will be rewarded by finding the evidence..... I think we have to believe that God might exist before we find the evidence because otherwise we will not be willing to earnestly seek God.

If one says that God does not exist because God does not prove it to me, as some atheists say, that is not earnestly seeking. That is demanding that God operate on your terms, but the omnipotent God does not take orders from humans, He only does what he chooses.

I think we're getting the term, "God" confused. I don't believe in the pagan god of the Bible. He's just another invention of the Hebrews, much like their ancestors the Sumerians who believed in El. I bet many here don't know that yahweh was just another a god in the pantheon of Sumerian gods and the Hebrews just adopted him as their chief god. Originally the Hebrews were polytheist.

I think there is a case to be made for a higher intelligence out there somewhere. It's the only rational explanation for the incredibly complex DNA/RNA code we see in each strand of DNA. The whole operation is so mind-blowing as to be impossible statistically, yet here we are.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I think we're getting the term, "God" confused. I don't believe in the pagan god of the Bible. He's just another invention of the Hebrews, much like their ancestors the Sumerians who believed in El.
For the record, I do not believe in the anthropomorphic God of the Bible either, especially not in the God of the Old Testament.

Whereas the Baha'i version of God is a little too personal for me, below is an apt description of that God from Wikipedia.

The Bahá'í view of God is essentially monotheistic. God is the imperishable, uncreated being who is the source of all existence.[1] He is described as "a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty".[2][3] Though transcendent and inaccessible directly, his image is reflected in his creation......

The Bahá'í teachings state that there is only one God and that his essence is absolutely inaccessible from the physical realm of existence and that, therefore, his reality is completely unknowable. Thus, all of humanity's conceptions of God which have been derived throughout history are mere manifestations of the human mind and not at all reflective of the nature of God's essence......

Although human cultures and religions differ on their conceptions of God and his nature, Bahá'ís believe they nevertheless refer to one and the same Being. The differences, instead of being regarded as irreconcilable constructs of mutually exclusive cultures, are seen as purposefully reflective of the varying needs of the societies in which the divine messages were revealed.[8]

While the Bahá'í writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2]Shoghi Effendi writes:

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[17][18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God in the Baha'i Faith
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Of course it makes sense, but not if you're a believer in Adam and Eve. If you're a believer in natural selection and evolution then what was the method of reproduction among the earliest mammals? They didn't just pop up with penis and vagina and sperm. There had to be hundreds of thousands of years evolution of the reproduction system.
I refer you to my previous post.
That question does not even make sense. You know that sexual reproduction was a thing long before humans evolved, right?
Come back when you can step off script.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
I'm referring to basically one dynamic: Christian prays for healing for himself or a family member but family member dies. Something like this: "Dear Father in heaven. Your son Jesus promises us that if we ask you for anything in his name you will grant it. I now ask that you heal my beloved child of this horrible illness. I claim this promise in Jesus' name. Amen." But the child dies. Millions of children die after their parents pray this prayer. God doesn't lift a finger to help the child. Why? Because prayer doesn't work. God is a deist God. He doesn't interfere with nature's natural course.
But that's what you don't know. You assume that just because God declines to miraculously heal a person (child or not) from a terminal decease he must therefore be blind or indifferent to the circumstances. But that's not true at all. We cannot see the invincible graces that if responded to will bring about the greater good of all involved. Because God permits no evil unless that evil can be used to bring about even more good. Even if it is good we will never fathom until we see the whole picture of our lives in eternity. While we are here stuck in this limited flesh machine we will never see the full picture, because our vantage point is only a tiny speck of history's grand scheme.

Again, a long, comfortable and happy life on this Earth is not our promised destiny. An eternal life of happiness with God is. But to reach that life we have to trust God. A trust not based on crass expectations for miracles, but on the conviction that no matter what happens God will be there with us even when we're at the threshold of death.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I go onto a BBS and read stories from COVID long haulers--those who have had COVID and are testing negative but carry a variety of lingering symptoms like fatigue, shortness of breath, difficulty breathing, body aches, joint pain--a whole cornucopia of symptoms ranging from mild to unbearable. The majority of them are posting prayer requests for family members or themselves and members respond with praying icons accompanied by "Praying". Most are still suffering these horrible residual problems 6 to 9 months after acquiring the infection.

What bewilders me to no end is why people pray to God when He clearly is not going to answer their prayers. I mean WHY????? Statistically some recover at about the same rate as people of other religions and atheists so it's not like God is rushing to help Christians. I pointed out elsewhere that statistically if 70% of Americans identify as Christian and 350,000 people have already died from COVID that means that 245,000 Christians had family members, friends and church members praying for them and yet these people died anyway, and not comfortably but in the most terrible manner imaginable--for days to weeks feeling like they were breathing through a straw according to many, and an unrelenting feeling like they were suffocating every minute of the day along with all the pain.

"These are God's children," I thought, and God doesn't lift a finger to help them even though Jesus promised, "If you ask the Father for anything in my name He will grant it." I mean He doesn't even let them die comfortably. He has to put them through the worst torture imaginable. If He had any mercy at least He'd let them die quickly and painlessly.

It doesn't stop with COVID. Think of the millions of Christian children dying of cancer who had good Christian parents and their families praying for them and they died slow agonizing deaths anyway. What about the millions of homeless, jobless, unemployed and sick who pray night and day and never receive what they need? Oh I know a few have some stories about how God helped them but statistically it's no different than the rate other non-Christians get out of trouble.

The adage "Nothing fails like prayer" is so true. I prayed when I was a Christian. I never had prayers answered. It's so obvious God doesn't answer prayer and yet people still pray. Christians please explain why--outside of praying you find your lost car keys--you pray when you must know deep down the more difficult the request the less likely your problems are going to be resolved by God.
Straw man argument. “Prayer” and “Rubbing the Magic Lamp” are completely different things. Prayer is coming alongside God. Prayer is listening. Prayer is allowing the Spirit to speak for us in sighs too deep for words.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Straw man argument. “Prayer” and “Rubbing the Magic Lamp” are completely different things. Prayer is coming alongside God. Prayer is listening. Prayer is allowing the Spirit to speak for us in sighs too deep for words.
Prayer is a good thing if it comforts a person and calms them down when they are going through a trial. I'd call something like prayer a good therapy. The person praying can even believe God is listening to them if it makes them feel better. All that doesn't change the fact that from all outward indications all they're doing is having a conversation with themselves. They may hear voices in their mind talking to them and think it's the Holy Spirit, but still there's no way to distinguish whether God is really talking to them or they're delusional. But the bottom line is that nothing measurable results from their prayers. No jobs are found when requested, no family members are healed of disease; they die anyway, no food is put on the table as a result of prayer, no homeless person suddenly is offered a free house out of the blue, no woman is saved from rape and murder when she screams, "God, please save me!". Any good result that occurs by happenstance is always explainable by natural means. In other words, NOTHING miraculous happens as a result of prayer.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
But that's what you don't know. You assume that just because God declines to miraculously heal a person (child or not) from a terminal decease he must therefore be blind or indifferent to the circumstances. But that's not true at all. We cannot see the invincible graces that if responded to will bring about the greater good of all involved. Because God permits no evil unless that evil can be used to bring about even more good. Even if it is good we will never fathom until we see the whole picture of our lives in eternity. While we are here stuck in this limited flesh machine we will never see the full picture, because our vantage point is only a tiny speck of history's grand scheme.

Again, a long, comfortable and happy life on this Earth is not our promised destiny. An eternal life of happiness with God is. But to reach that life we have to trust God. A trust not based on crass expectations for miracles, but on the conviction that no matter what happens God will be there with us even when we're at the threshold of death.

Please, you tell me what good comes from children who are being sold into sexual slavery by the hundreds of thousands and abused repeatedly. Go on, tell me.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
I refer you to my previous post.

Come back when you can step off script.
Yeah, I agree. I don't understand your point or what it has to do with an om-impotent God who doesn't care in the least about us. So I'm wasting my time on this. I suspect you feel the same way.
 
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