How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[IndigoChild5559]

What does Messiah mean, do you think? By the way, and I do mean by the way, God doesn't need to be resurrected.

Mashiach simply means anointed. THE Messiah refers to him who will rule Israel during the messianic era. He will usher in an era of world peace, bring all the Jews back to the Land, and rule from Jerusalem. That's the main idea.

The Christian ideas of a suffering savior messiah are based on misinterpreting Isaiah 53 -- it is not about the messiah, but about Israel.

 

[YoursTrue]

Here is a list of messianic prophecies:

2 Shmuel 7:10-13
And I will appoint a place for My people, for Israel, and I will plant them, and they will dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and the wicked people shall not continue to afflict them as formerly.
And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the Lord has told you that the Lord will make for you a house.
When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

This has not happened. Wicked people have been murdering Jewish people all throughout history. The Temple is not built. There is no King.

Yeshayahu 2-4

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war and the Temple has not been re-established.

Yeshayahu 11-12-13

And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.
And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim.

The lost tribes have not been gathered back to Israel.

Yeshahyahu 27-12-13

And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gathered one by one, O children of Israel.
And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.

Not happened yet.

Yirmiyahu 31:33

And no longer shall one teach his neighbour or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Nothing about needing a middle-man and we don't live in an age where everyone knows G-d is G-d.

Yechezkel 37:26-28

And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."

Temple still not built and the Nations don't all recognise G-d as G-d.

Micah 4:1-3

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it.
And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war. L-rd's House not established.

Tzefanaiah 3:9-13

For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering.
On that day you shall not be ashamed of all your deeds [with] which you rebelled against Me, for then I will remove from your midst those who rejoice in your pride, and you shall no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mount.
And I will leave over in your midst a humble and poor people, and they shall take shelter in the name of the Lord.
The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice nor speak lies; neither shall deceitful speech be found in their mouth, for they shall graze and lie down, with no one to cause them to shudder.

This hasn't happened either. None of it.

Zach 14:9-11

And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.
The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain, from the hill of Rimmon in the south of Jerusalem; but it [Jerusalem] will be elevated high and remain in its old place; from the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, until the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel until the king's wine-cellars.
And they shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more destruction; but Jerusalem shall dwell in safety.

Jerusalem is hardly dwelling in safety and polytheism is still a thing.

There is nothing here about needing to die, be raised, then come again.

Thank you for the list of prophecies. I hope to look at them further. So then I might suspect, as I think I've been told, that the reason Rabbi Schneerson is not the messiah is that he died. Also, another point I would like to bring up is that from the beginning, Cain slew Abel. Man's inhumanity to man from the very start. As I learned, it all started in the Garden of Eden. God made a promise to Abraham.

 

[YoursTrue]

Mashiach simply means anointed. THE Messiah refers to him who will rule Israel during the messianic era. He will usher in an era of world peace, bring all the Jews back to the Land, and rule from Jerusalem. That's the main idea.

The Christian ideas of a suffering savior messiah are based on misinterpreting Isaiah 53 -- it is not about the messiah, but about Israel.

Messiah does mean anointed, so we agree there. That is true. That was my question to SkyWalker. Thank you.

 

[YoursTrue]

You are just reading this into the passage. This is all just your Christianity. It says nothing like this.

So are you saying that what Daniel wrote is not true?

 

[Rival]

So are you saying that what Daniel wrote is not true?

Heaven forbid. I'm saying I disagree with your interpretation.

 

[YoursTrue]

The Old Testament talks about the Resurrection of the dead in the Daniel verse about everlasting contempt, and God is all powerful.

So then, SW, Messiah means -- anointed.

 

[YoursTrue]

Heaven forbid. I'm saying I disagree with your interpretation.

OK. I wonder what your interpretation is. Well, rather than saying that, I wonder what the agreement is.

 

[Rival]

OK. I wonder what your interpretation is. Well, rather than saying that, I wonder what the agreement is.

It's quite longwinded and indepth, and I think this article does it more justice than I could ever do:

Jews for Judaism | Daniel 9 - A True Biblical Interpretation

I know this may seem like a lot of reading but I think if you really want the Jewish view it's well worth it.

 

[YoursTrue]

Here is a list of messianic prophecies:

2 Shmuel 7:10-13
And I will appoint a place for My people, for Israel, and I will plant them, and they will dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and the wicked people shall not continue to afflict them as formerly.
And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the Lord has told you that the Lord will make for you a house.
When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

This has not happened. Wicked people have been murdering Jewish people all throughout history. The Temple is not built. There is no King.

Yeshayahu 2-4

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war and the Temple has not been re-established.

Yeshayahu 11-12-13

And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.
And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim.

The lost tribes have not been gathered back to Israel.

Yeshahyahu 27-12-13

And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gathered one by one, O children of Israel.
And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.

Not happened yet.

Yirmiyahu 31:33

And no longer shall one teach his neighbour or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Nothing about needing a middle-man and we don't live in an age where everyone knows G-d is G-d.

Yechezkel 37:26-28

And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."

Temple still not built and the Nations don't all recognise G-d as G-d.

Micah 4:1-3

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it.
And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war. L-rd's House not established.

Tzefanaiah 3:9-13

For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering.
On that day you shall not be ashamed of all your deeds [with] which you rebelled against Me, for then I will remove from your midst those who rejoice in your pride, and you shall no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mount.
And I will leave over in your midst a humble and poor people, and they shall take shelter in the name of the Lord.
The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice nor speak lies; neither shall deceitful speech be found in their mouth, for they shall graze and lie down, with no one to cause them to shudder.

This hasn't happened either. None of it.

Zach 14:9-11

And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.
The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain, from the hill of Rimmon in the south of Jerusalem; but it [Jerusalem] will be elevated high and remain in its old place; from the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, until the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel until the king's wine-cellars.
And they shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more destruction; but Jerusalem shall dwell in safety.

Jerusalem is hardly dwelling in safety and polytheism is still a thing.

There is nothing here about needing to die, be raised, then come again.

I find it interesting that opinions vary on the identity of the possibility of the Messiah. Evidently many believe that Menachem Schneerson is still the messiah. Chabad messianism - Wikipedia

 

[Rival]

I find it interesting that opinions vary on the identity of the possibility of the Messiah. Evidently many believe that Menachem Schneerson is still the messiah. Chabad messianism - Wikipedia

Yeah, every group has its weirdos

 

[YoursTrue]

It's quite longwinded and indepth, and I think this article does it more justice than I could ever do:

Jews for Judaism | Daniel 9 - A True Biblical Interpretation

I know this may seem like a lot of reading but I think if you really want the Jewish view it's well worth it.

If you read it and are willing to discuss it, I will read it if I can. OK? In the meantime, however, I was reading about Menachem Schneerson and the lingering idea amongst some that he is still the messiah despite his death.
Chabad messianism - Wikipedia

 

[YoursTrue]

Yeah, every group has its weirdos

Oh?? What's weird, that some still believe M. Schneerson is the Messiah?

 

[Rival]

If you read it and are willing to discuss it, I will read it if I can. OK? In the meantime, however, I was reading about Menachem Schneerson and the lingering idea amongst some that he is still the messiah despite his death.
Chabad messianism - Wikipedia

Like I said, every group has its weirdos. Chabad is just a Chassidic sect, one of many within Judaism. It doesn't represent Judaism as a whole, nor especially another group within it. It seems to be a Christian favourite to bring up and I don't know why, because this just doesn't come up a whole lot within Jewish discussion. It's just a weird thing some Lubavitchers believe.

 

[YoursTrue]

Here is a list of messianic prophecies:

2 Shmuel 7:10-13
And I will appoint a place for My people, for Israel, and I will plant them, and they will dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and the wicked people shall not continue to afflict them as formerly.
And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the Lord has told you that the Lord will make for you a house.
When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

This has not happened. Wicked people have been murdering Jewish people all throughout history. The Temple is not built. There is no King.

Yeshayahu 2-4

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war and the Temple has not been re-established.

Yeshayahu 11-12-13

And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.
And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim.

The lost tribes have not been gathered back to Israel.

Yeshahyahu 27-12-13

And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gathered one by one, O children of Israel.
And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.

Not happened yet.

Yirmiyahu 31:33

And no longer shall one teach his neighbour or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Nothing about needing a middle-man and we don't live in an age where everyone knows G-d is G-d.

Yechezkel 37:26-28

And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."

Temple still not built and the Nations don't all recognise G-d as G-d.

Micah 4:1-3

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it.
And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war. L-rd's House not established.

Tzefanaiah 3:9-13

For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering.
On that day you shall not be ashamed of all your deeds [with] which you rebelled against Me, for then I will remove from your midst those who rejoice in your pride, and you shall no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mount.
And I will leave over in your midst a humble and poor people, and they shall take shelter in the name of the Lord.
The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice nor speak lies; neither shall deceitful speech be found in their mouth, for they shall graze and lie down, with no one to cause them to shudder.

This hasn't happened either. None of it.

Zach 14:9-11

And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.
The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain, from the hill of Rimmon in the south of Jerusalem; but it [Jerusalem] will be elevated high and remain in its old place; from the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, until the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel until the king's wine-cellars.
And they shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more destruction; but Jerusalem shall dwell in safety.

Jerusalem is hardly dwelling in safety and polytheism is still a thing.

There is nothing here about needing to die, be raised, then come again.

OK, I read much of the article you cited from Jews for Judaism about Daniel's prophecies. Then I turned to another article they have about the Messiah. Jews for Judaism | Wanted: the Jewish Messiah
There's a lot of commentary in the article about Daniel's prophecy, it can be complicated. Let's just say that many were hoping (believing?) that M. Schneerson would be the messiah, isn't that true? He died at the age, I believe, of 92 or so. He had a stroke some years before that. During that time though, did his followers (I say in particular) return to Israel? And would the return to Israel by Jews in their entirety have been necessary if during his lifetime Menachem. Schneerson had been the messiah?

 

[Rival]

OK, I read much of the article you cited from Jews for Judaism about Daniel's prophecies. Then I turned to another article they have about the Messiah. Jews for Judaism | Wanted: the Jewish Messiah
There's a lot of commentary in the article about Daniel's prophecy, it can be complicated. Let's just say that many were hoping (believing?) that M. Schneerson would be the messiah, isn't that true? He died at the age, I believe, of 92 or so. He had a stroke some years before that. During that time though, did his followers (I say in particular) return to Israel? And would the return to Israel by Jews in their entirety have been necessary if during his lifetime Menachem. Schneerson had been the messiah?

It would have been necessary for him to have been King over Israel and bring back all Israel (lost tribes and all) to their land, among other things.

Not sure why you seem to be linking Rabbi Schneerson to Jews for Judaism though? Unless I'm misreading you and you just changed the topic.

 

[YoursTrue]

Like I said, every group has its weirdos. Chabad is just a Chassidic sect, one of many within Judaism. It doesn't represent Judaism as a whole, nor especially another group within it. It seems to be a Christian favourite to bring up and I don't know why, because this just doesn't come up a whole lot within Jewish discussion. It's just a weird thing some Lubavitchers believe.

You say "just a Chassidic sect," ok. (Oh.) (And then you say it's just a weird thing that some Lubavitchers believe...lol.ok..)
One reason I bring it up is because there was a sign on a NY highway near upstate NY, saying in large letters, "1-800-MOSHIACH." He was a very famous person at that time, and tens of thousands still visit his grave, including Jared and Ivanka Kushner.

 

[YoursTrue]

It would have been necessary for him to have been King over Israel and bring back all Israel (lost tribes and all) to their land, among other things.

Not sure why you seem to be linking Rabbi Schneerson to Jews for Judaism though? Unless I'm misreading you and you just changed the topic.

Because I wonder how people might believe he fulfilled the messianic prophecies in the article about the messiah in Jews for Judaism. I also wonder from that article what records are being kept about lineage now from David.

 

[YoursTrue]

It would have been necessary for him to have been King over Israel and bring back all Israel (lost tribes and all) to their land, among other things.

Not sure why you seem to be linking Rabbi Schneerson to Jews for Judaism though? Unless I'm misreading you and you just changed the topic.

I did a little further reading in Jews for Judaism, and one of the contributors is someone who studied with Menachem Schneerson.

 

[Rival]

You say "just a Chassidic sect," ok. (Oh.) (And then you say it's just a weird thing that some Lubavitchers believe...lol.ok..)
One reason I bring it up is because there was a sign on a NY highway near upstate NY, saying in large letters, "1-800-MOSHIACH." He was a very famous person at that time, and tens of thousands still visit his grave, including Jared and Ivanka Kushner.

There's...honestly not much to argue about here. They are just a sect within Judaism. Perhaps the main reason you're so familiar with them is because one of their main drives is Jewish outreach to other (non-practicing) Jews. I live in Britain and Chabad's influence just isn't that big here, not like in the US. They're a sect with a loud voice because they just kind of make that their job. Another Chassidic sect that seems quite good at this are the Breslover Chassidim; they also attract a lot of non-practicing Jews to Judaism because they have a very inviting, simple philosophy. They're not extremely large, but by and large many of their adherents are former non-practicing Jews so they have a big enough presence. They seem more popular in Israel. Their founder, Rebbe Nachman, also seemed to have messianic aspirations but this seems to have all but died.

Really, the bottom line is, Chabad Lubavitch are not representative of Orthodox Judaism and whilst I also read their site at times, it is better to supplement that understanding with other Jewish views. Chassidism as a whole does not represent OJ.

 

[YoursTrue]

There's...honestly not much to argue about here. They are just a sect within Judaism. Perhaps the main reason you're so familiar with them is because one of their main drives is Jewish outreach to other (non-practicing) Jews. I live in Britain and Chabad's influence just isn't that big here, not like in the US. They're a sect with a loud voice because they just kind of make that their job. Another Chassidic sect that seems quite good at this are the Breslover Chassidim; they also attract a lot of non-practicing Jews to Judaism because they have a very inviting, simple philosophy. They're not extremely large, but by and large many of their adherents are former non-practicing Jews so they have a big enough presence. They seem more popular in Israel. Their founder, Rebbe Nachman, also seemed to have messianic aspirations but this seems to have all but died.

But the bottom line is, Chabad Lubavitch are not representative of Orthodox Judaism and whilst I also read their site at times, it is better to supplement that understanding with other Jewish views. Chassidism as a whole does not represent OJ.

Let me say this. Many have not returned to Israel. I'm speaking of religious people. I will repeat that it seems that the website has commentary by a student of M. Schneerson, he also a rabbi. Now that we've settled that, perhaps we can discuss some of the things written on that website. You're in Britain, I'm in the U.S. It's getting way past my bedtime. Goodnight, or good morning, whichever side of the Atlantic you're on.