Is the Bible Trustworthy?

[PruePhillip]

How convenient.

Those old timers were ignorant and superstitious, they'd believe anything.

No, actually, much of the scripture is written this way.
God creates heaven
and the earth
and the earth is dark (2020 studies show it was like cloud enshrouded like Venus)
and oceanic (ca 2005 study showing early earth had little to no dry land)
and sterile (pre-biotic)

and there was light (skies opening, becoming our modern atmosphere)
and the dry land appeared (continent rose, required water to assist the subduction)
and life appeared on land (2020 concensus that life first appeared on land)
and then the seas brought forth life
and finally man

You need to overcome five hurdles in reading this -
1 - translation
2 - oral tradition for millenium
3 - theological language
4 - symbolism
5 - written from a human perspective, from that point non-scientific people could understand.

 

[sojourner]

Ummmmm, no. There is a difference between perception and reality. Reality, however, is synonymous with physical fact.

Reality is not dependent on human observation. If humanity were to become extinct tomorrow, reality would continue on it's merry way, whether or not we are around to experience.

That the world and cosmos are under continual physical change (weather, tectonic plate movement, expanding universe) is a separate issue and just one characteristic of the reality of the cosmos.

I disagree.

 

[PruePhillip]

And most of us follow them even if we never heard of " Jesus ", because its pretty much universal folk wisdom, including in Chins.

Very little of the Bible is Jesus-sayings.

So what's all the rest for?

The context to it all.
Recall the Exodus account - 'God's people' must bring a perfect male lamb into their midst for three days.
After bonding with it they mus kill it and daub the blood in their lintel. They are the blood saved people of
God - and they must eat the lamb, all of it (not just the parts they find appealing as most religious people
do.)
And God leads them out of Egypt, they have no place to call their own for their life time. They look instead
to God's promised land. And Moses sees this land but he cannot cross over till he dies.

etc..

This (and all the details in Exodus) are symbols of the life one must live if they are of God's redeemed,
blood bought people - rejecting the world, looking for God's city, laying down their lives, led of God - a
pillar of cloud by day and fire by night, feeding only upon what God approves of
etc
And Babylon is about rebellion and captivity, Malachi is about the coming Messiah, Zechariah speaks of
the reigning King being also the lowly Redeemer, Psalms is exhortation, Proverbs is wisdom, Kings and
Samuel about the people of God
etc

 

[MikeF]

I disagree.

Got it. Cheers.

 

[sojourner]

In my experience, the use of the word "faith" on this forum most often conforms to the religious uses above. That would be the safest use for this label to be understood clearly

The proffered definition is, in my opinion quite superficial. Faith is not superficial.

Since I’ve made my use of the word clear, there should be no problem in understanding.

As to your paradigm, I have issue on a couple of fronts. First, it relies solely on personal, individual perception of both self and the external world

You missed the part about relationship. Other people are present in the world.

Without any external check or reference to personal perception we are vulnerable to many things that make use fallible, imperfect observers

That’s why we build relationships with others.

The second issue I have with the paradigm is with the word "design". This would need elaboration as to the source of the design, it's structure, it's purpose etc., in essence, how we know the design and how we verify it.

Each person builds her or his own design. It’s part of the interior work we undertake. Other designs, such as ceremony, worship, ritual, etc. are undertaken with others as part of an agreed upon understanding.

 

[Audie]

The context to it all.
Recall the Exodus account - 'God's people' must bring a perfect male lamb into their midst for three days.
After bonding with it they mus kill it and daub the blood in their lintel. They are the blood saved people of
God - and they must eat the lamb, all of it (not just the parts they find appealing as most religious people
do.)
And God leads them out of Egypt, they have no place to call their own for their life time. They look instead
to God's promised land. And Moses sees this land but he cannot cross over till he dies.

etc..

This (and all the details in Exodus) are symbols of the life one must live if they are of God's redeemed,
blood bought people - rejecting the world, looking for God's city, laying down their lives, led of God - a
pillar of cloud by day and fire by night, feeding only upon what God approves of
etc
And Babylon is about rebellion and captivity, Malachi is about the coming Messiah, Zechariah speaks of
the reigning King being also the lowly Redeemer, Psalms is exhortation, Proverbs is wisdom, Kings and
Samuel about the people of God
etc

So you say. Another will say its
"Gospel truth ", every word a fact.

Who needs all these phony stories and supposed symbols? Theres lots of morality tales that are way better rearing.

 

[sojourner]

Got it. Cheers.

Your position dictates that there be some completely objective standard for what constitutes reality. But we are not wholly objective creatures. We are the standard for what we perceive as reality — again, in relationship with others in agreed upon, shared perception. In the end, perception is all we have. By scientific definition, for example, if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, it does not make a sound. There is no perception.

 

[Audie]

Your position dictates that there be some completely objective standard for what constitutes reality. But we are not wholly objective creatures. We are the standard for what we perceive as reality — again, in relationship with others in agreed upon, shared perception. In the end, perception is all we have. By scientific definition, for example, if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, it does not make a sound. There is no perception.

You sure about that definition?

 

[PruePhillip]

So you say. Another will say its
"Gospel truth ", every word a fact.

Who needs all these phony stories and supposed symbols? Theres lots of morality tales that are way better rearing.

True, the world is full of morality tales - just watch a Pixar movie.
And you will have wise men like Confucius, or Solomon.
But the story of Christ is the Messiah who gave His life that we would have salvation, the one foretold in 2,000 of scripture.
So this isn't just a morality tale.
Jacob, in Egypt, said there would be a Hebrew nation one day, but it would end with the Messiah.
Daniel said that Rome would end this nation, and kill the Messiah too (but He would die for His people)
And Zechariah said the Jews will mourn when they see their Reigning King is the same lowly man they
once crucified.
So yeah, it's much more than a morality tale. In fact, Jesus said if you are only a moral person then you
don't understand. It's deep.

 

[Audie]

True, the world is full of morality tales - just watch a Pixar movie.
And you will have wise men like Confucius, or Solomon.
But the story of Christ is the Messiah who gave His life that we would have salvation, the one foretold in 2,000 of scripture.
So this isn't just a morality tale.
Jacob, in Egypt, said there would be a Hebrew nation one day, but it would end with the Messiah.
Daniel said that Rome would end this nation, and kill the Messiah too (but He would die for His people)
And Zechariah said the Jews will mourn when they see their Reigning King is the same lowly man they
once crucified.
So yeah, it's much more than a morality tale. In fact, Jesus said if you are only a moral person then you
don't understand. It's deep.

Oh, right, predictions.

That convinces only the committed believer.

They ignore the contortions needed to make some come true, the predictions anyone could make, the vague ones that are open to free form
" interpretation, and, the ones that proved false.

So what is that boring old book actually good for?

 

[MikeF]

... for example, if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, it does not make a sound. There is no perception.

I don't have a problem with this statement. Like "faith", you have your own take on "reality". Given the scenario above, for me, that there is a forest, that there is a tree, that the tree falls, that waves are created through the surrounding air, and waves propagate through the ground upon impact, all this is reality.

Your position dictates that there be some completely objective standard for what constitutes reality.

Of course. We need a word and definition that we can use to refer to all that is, independent of how we perceive that which is real and existent. The traditional word used for this is reality.

But we are not wholly objective creatures.

Hence the need for science to mitigate that.

We are the standard for what we perceive as reality — again, in relationship with others in agreed upon, shared perception.

We are not the standard. We, together as you indicate, are just one aspect of what is required to understand reality. We must have means and methods to account for and mitigate the fallibility of we human observers. Hence the need for science and it's principles and standards of investigation.

In the end, perception is all we have.

And clearly, as indicated above, I disagree.

 

[PruePhillip]

Oh, right, predictions.

That convinces only the committed believer.

They ignore the contortions needed to make some come true, the predictions anyone could make, the vague ones that are open to free form
" interpretation, and, the ones that proved false.

So what is that boring old book actually good for?

A good place to assess the 'morality tale' of Jesus is to read Matt 5,6 and 7. This is the Sermon on the Mount.
Here Jesus makes it clear that morality, while it is good and necessary (ie don't commit adultery) it won't offer
salvation. Jesus had raised the bar - but essentially stating what many had written or spoken in the Old Testament.

The general thrust of prophecy is that the Hebrews would one day be a nation. They would lose that nation. Their
Messiah would come to them - both as Redeemer (the lamb slain) and also as reining King. The Messiah, rejected
of the Jews, would be believed upon by the Gentiles. But when the Gentiles time is finished the Jews would return
to their homeland. I put it to you that most of this has already happened and we are living in the time of the return
of the Jews now.

 

[Audie]

A good place to assess the 'morality tale' of Jesus is to read Matt 5,6 and 7. This is the Sermon on the Mount.
Here Jesus makes it clear that morality, while it is good and necessary (ie don't commit adultery) it won't offer
salvation. Jesus had raised the bar - but essentially stating what many had written or spoken in the Old Testament.

The general thrust of prophecy is that the Hebrews would one day be a nation. They would lose that nation. Their
Messiah would come to them - both as Redeemer (the lamb slain) and also as reining King. The Messiah, rejected
of the Jews, would be believed upon by the Gentiles. But when the Gentiles time is finished the Jews would return
to their homeland. I put it to you that most of this has already happened and we are living in the time of the return
of the Jews now.

Besides the failed prophecy-
There is also the self fulfilling prophecy.
Again tho, what's any of it good for?
It's got nothing to do with me, my life, my culture.

 

[Moses_UK]

Very poor observation on your part.
Very poor comprehension of anything that I wrote in those posts

I am not a Christian.

You may not be a Christian but you come from a Christian background.
you seemed to defend Christianity which cultural Christians do always.

 

[sojourner]

I don't have a problem with this statement. Like "faith", you have your own take on "reality". Given the scenario above, for me, that there is a forest, that there is a tree, that the tree falls, that waves are created through the surrounding air, and waves propagate through the ground upon impact, all this is reality.



Of course. We need a word and definition that we can use to refer to all that is, independent of how we perceive that which is real and existent. The traditional word used for this is reality.



Hence the need for science to mitigate that.



We are not the standard. We, together as you indicate, are just one aspect of what is required to understand reality. We must have means and methods to account for and mitigate the fallibility of we human observers. Hence the need for science and it's principles and standards of investigation.


And clearly, as indicated above, I disagree.

Who decides what is real? Is there some ... something other than human beings who set definitions, who standardize linguistic terms, who discern whether standards are met?

If not, then, we humans determine reality. If we suddenly disappear, there IS no such thing called “reality,” because there is nothing left to see that standards and definitions are met. I challenge that “reality”!is a human construct that cannot exist without us.

And, since we, as whole beings, include the subjective, it is part of what we are, and that aspect is not in need of “mitigation.” In fact, it must be taken under consideration in the determination of what is real.

 

[savagewind]

My discussion partner in the other thread doubts it is...
He cited one example among others insinuating Bible contradicted itself. According to Matthew, Jairus said his daughter died, see Matthew 9:18-10, whereas Mark 5:21-24 quotes him in a sense that she is dying right the moment when they spoke.
Contradiction, no?

Well yes, Jairus contradicted himself.... doesn't mean Bible is wrong.
This is at least my 5 cents.

In my opinion, the Bible can be trustworhty even if the Canon was established only centuries later and even if the authors were partially unknown.

Thomas

Can the Bible be trustworthy for what? To lead? To believe in? To teach? To enjoy? What?

 

[PruePhillip]

Besides the failed prophecy-
There is also the self fulfilling prophecy.
Again tho, what's any of it good for?
It's got nothing to do with me, my life, my culture.

Matt 5,6 and 7 is a universal message. It doesn't speak to any race, and ethnic
group. It makes no difference man or woman, young or old, rich or poor - we are
all one people before God, we are all going to die. Culture is of no importance.

And not 'failed prophecy' but 'yet to be completed prophecy'
The prophecy of Ezekiel 38 states that a new state of Israel will be attacked by
Middle East and possible Russian actors - with Israel's ally being a nation unknown
to bible readers (in the islands or coastlands)
That hasn't happened yet - reads like a world war to me.
And the Second Coming, where the Jews will mourn in seeing their Messiah as the
one they crucified is of course yet to happen.

 

[savagewind]

To dissect something means that it is dead. Stop dissecting the Bible and it will live for you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Can the Bible be trustworthy for what? To lead? To believe in? To teach? To enjoy? What?

The OP appears to believe every word in the Bible, at least that seems to be his claim. Even the parts that have been refuted beyond a reasonable doubt or the parts that contradict each other.

 

[savagewind]

The OP appears to believe every word in the Bible, at least that seems to be his claim. Even the parts that have been refuted beyond a reasonable doubt or the parts that contradict each other.

I have seen that in some people. Do they really not know that they are making it equal to their god?