dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
So you value love and power instead of commitment. Got it.
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How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?
- Thread starter ayin
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- jesusisyhwh
Say you're not, but that's all this thread is for and pretty much summarizes your posts I think. See the title? Notice how it presumes Jews are wrong? That's called a 'Challenge', and you are opposing the Jews as part of that challenge. You're constantly explaining why you think that they ought to be Christians.
How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?
That's not at all slandering people you don't understand in the name of Christ? I suspect that it is.
You're trying to argue that offerings aren't for atonement? In a thread questioning the legitimacy of Judaism? Truth is stranger than fiction.
Yet you say to me "I'm not criticizing the Jews I was saying why I believe Jesus is..." You clearly want to change Judaism to get the Jews to proclaim Jesus. They can't proclaim messiahs that they can't test. Its a waste of your time.
I was saying that as a nation israel is imperfect like any other nation and that's why I don't think they they are who Isaiah was talking about.
Why would you expect them to be perfect? Most of all the prophets do is chastise Israel for backsliding.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
It's the entire Torah in Hebrew. I.e. the entire Hebrew text of the Torah that Hashem gave warns Jews to stay away from the concepts found in the New Testament. Are you sure you don't want me to prove that the Torah based Jews on RF can read it? it would be that hard to prove.
You are using a strawman argument here. I did not say the Jews cannot read their
own Torah in Hebrew. I just asked what it said.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
So, does the Messiah come from Bethlehem, or not?
Why would backsliders be who the iniquity of us all was given to?
They're the Chosen Nation backsliding or not. And it doesn't say our iniquities were put on them the way you're reading it.
I see a Messiah was to come from Bethlehem. There are more places mentioned though.
Regards Tony
That Israel had bared the brunt of the dislike of the nations by being driven out, tortured, martyred etc. Israel prays for the nations and G-d rescinds His anger towards them, as the nations realise they have gone astray and that Israel was and is indeed in the right.
Israel praying for them does not constitute them bearing their sins. If I pray for someone I don't take on their iniquities upon me.
Jewish translation:
We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.
Another one...
And we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all to fall upon him.
Israel is suffering because of other people's wickedness. The iniquity falling upon Israel is the exiles and the torturings etc.
It says lastly,
Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.
He prays for those who transgress; good ultimately comes from this suffering. This is common. Israel is not 'taking on others' sins' as in a Christian mindset - if he somehow did this, then why would he need to intercede for them? Their sins would have gone. He is baring the burden of sinful nations by suffering under them and then ultimately this suffering turns to good, whereupon Israel intercedes for those who transgressed, as at this point in the song they have realised they have erred by persecuting him.
Its not just you but a whole pack of Christians in here basically talking smack, coming up will all kinds of things to complain about Jews as if it were a good thing to do. There are theological comments mostly. I wasn't aware anybody had brought up politics.
I believe that the dislike of Jews is spiritual, due to Christ being Jewish and Israel being the chosen nation.
I see that is correct. I see Israel is a people bonded together under One God.
Regards Tony
Anyone who lives in protest against societal norms is disliked. The way such disliked people are treated gives a measure of how cold a society is. Worst case it kills or exiles such people. It could be you or I or Jews or whomever if we live against what is considered normal in society. It is not spiritually motivated as far as anyone can tell. Consider the Muslims in China, for example. They're not Jews, yet they are being persecuted. I'd hardly consider the Communist Party to be persecuting them because of a spiritual dislike. Its plain dislike. Jews live to themselves in small communities. Hence they are disliked for it. They also don't change their ways according to political whims, and that makes them unpopular with many politicians. Its all very normal.
What does other people going astray from God have to do with why Israel paid the price for their mistakes? Israel could not accept the punishment of other people's sins because they are not God.
Jesus interceded for us by acting as the intermediate between God and man. Jesus isn't just a redeemer Messiah but also an advocate and a mediator. Job mentioned that during his days there was no mediator between him and God.
Isaiah 52:13 and 53:12 says that the Messiah will be highly exalted but first will suffer terribly. He will actually be disfigured in his suffering. And the narrative says the people of Israel didn't get it. They thought he was suffering for his own sins and wickedness; they didn't realize he was bearing their sins, suffering on their behalf, and by his wounds there was healing for them. Then it speaks of his death and his continued life after that.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Jews were not required to die for other Jews. The redemption of Israel was through the daily sacrifice in the
temple. I don't see how Jews were to die for others, be resurrected and see completion of their work.
I feel its a thread accusing Jews of various things. Its shameful and not a good way to proceed. It embarrasses not them but us.
Since forgiveness is required to validate any sacrifice, the sacrifice doesn't do anything but facilitate. Its the forgiveness which does everything. Also 'Through' does not mean 'Was'. Food from the killing of the animal is a tool and part of their communion, but forgiveness is the function. The unity of the tribes is paramount. As with Christian communion the center is peace, forgiveness and overlooking disagreements and differences. Without this forgiveness both communion and sacrifice are judgment.
They ate the sacrifice together, laying aside anger and pride. The only way forward was mutual forgiveness, just as it is now in Christ. From that pattern we get our modern day Eucharist and Communion rites.