• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

PureX Answers Some Questions

PureX

Veteran Member
I did not want to disrupt someone else's thread, so I will post my answers, here.

I would love to understand how one mixes Taoism/Christianity?
Jesus claims absolute truth.
He claims to be God and one with God.
I am not a religious Christian. I am a philosophical Christian. Mainly because I do not believe Jesus intended to start any religions. He was a Jew, and he remained a Jew. And Jews then, as now, do not believe that non-Jews need to become Jews to understand or relate to God. They believe that everyone can do this on their own terms, and by their own paths.

I also do not perceive Jesus claimed to be God, though I understand people's confusion. He is the living embodiment of God's Divine Spirit in human form. So he was an 'expression' of God, and he understood this, but he also understood that he was not God. And so should we.

People have difficulty understanding the difference between being an expression of, and actually being. But I'm an artist, so I do not have difficulty with that. I understand that my artworks 'express my mind and my spirit', and yet they are not 'me'. It is the same with Jesus as the Christ. He is the human expression of the mind and spirit of God, but he is not God. And this condition is referred to as "Christ". Or as Jesus being 'the Christ'.

The advent of this "Christ", to me, represents a revelation and a promise to humanity. The revelation is that God's divine spirit exists within us all, as we are God's creations (much like my sculptures embody my mind and spirit). And this divine spirit within us manifests as love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity. The promise, then, is that if we will set aside our own petty fears, and desires, and resentments, and allow this divine spirit within us to become us, we will be healed and saved from ourselves. And we can help to heal and save others. And if (hopefully when) we all, or enough of us adopt this way of being, the whole world will be healed and saved (from us). And we will find ourselves returned to "Eden".

I choose to accept this revelation and promise as being true. And so I try to live my life accordingly.
How do you reconcile Jesus’s truth claims with yin and yang?
Yin and Yang are the 'here' and 'there', the 'now' and 'then', and the 'is' and 'is not' of how we humans perceive the phenomena of existing. The term "Tao" means "Way". Specifically, it means the way that existence, exists. Existence is an event taking place, and the Tao is the 'flow of it's being'. The flow of all being. But we humans cannot comprehend the Tao. It's both too simple, and too complex. So our minds break everything into a duality of opposites to try to help us comprehend the Tao. But it does not help. It simply is how our minds function.

These are the very first lines from the Tao Te Ching ...

"The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding."
and then this ...

"When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever."
This duality is recognized by Jesus as darkness and light. As our fear and desire and resentment driving us to act out in sinful ways, and as that divine spirit within us driving us to act out in loving and healing ways. While Taoism sees that duality in terms of an endless cycle of opposition (maintaining a perpetual balance).

But what's important about Taoism as a philosophy, for me, is that it begins with the realization that we humans are trapped by our own intelligence; and ignorance. We are clever enough to ask questions that we are not wise enough to answer. In Taoism, there are two realms of being. The Divine Realm, and the Material Realm. And we humans are kind of stuck, suspended within and between them both. A part of each, and yet not fully present in either.

And the solution to this dilemma is not to try and understand our way out of it, but to align ourselves with the 'flow' of it. The flow of intent from the Divine Realm, 'above', to it's manifestation in the Material Realm, 'below'. (Remember that 'above' and 'below' are illusions created by our dualistic thought process)

Both Taoism and Christianity are about living via faith. Both are about humbly accepting that we do not have "the truth", and so must align ourselves with it as it flows through us, and all around us.
 
Last edited:

PureX

Veteran Member
I am also wondering if you have ever read the entire bible?
Yes, I have.

Truth. Who has it? Where can we find (absolute) truth? How can we know for certain (absolute) truth?
The truth is 'what is'. No one "has it". It simply "is it".

Except perhaps "God", if God as we define it, exists.

Certainty can only be obtained by humans through self-delusion.
How does one get understanding if all sides are not known?
From the Tao Te Ching ...

"In pursuit of knowledge,
every day something is added.
In the practice of the Tao,
every day something is dropped.
Less and less do you need to force things,
until finally you arrive at non-action.
When nothing is done,
nothing is left undone.

True mastery can be gained
by letting things go their own way.
It can't be gained by interfering."​

We achieve our divine purpose not by 'learning what it is, and forcing ourselves to comply'. But by aligning ourselves with the flow of being (not fighting it), within which we already exist, and already are fulfilling our destiny.
 
Last edited:

Colt

Well-Known Member
So it was all just a big misunderstanding and by chance a religion got started about it which changed the coarse of the Western world. Jesus was forever saying things that he didn't mean but didn't correct them either.

Headlines: "Local Contractor From Nazareth Gets Himself Killed, Accidently Starts Religion."
 

wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
I did not want to disrupt someone else's thread, so I will post my answers, here.

I am not a religious Christian. I am a philosophical Christian. Mainly because I do not believe Jesus intended to start any religions. He was a Jew, and he remained a Jew. And Jews then, as now, do not believe that non-Jews need to become Jews to understand or relate to God. They believe that everyone can do this on their own terms, and by their own paths.

I also do not perceive Jesus claimed to be God, though I understand people's confusion. He is the living embodiment of God's Divine Spirit in human form. So he was an 'expression' of God, and he understood this, but he also understood that he was not God. And so should we.

People have difficulty understanding the difference between being an expression of, and actually being. But I'm an artist, so I do not have difficulty with that. I understand that my artworks 'express my mind and my spirit', and yet they are not 'me'. It is the same with Jesus as the Christ. He is the human expression of the mind and spirit of God, but he is not God. And this condition is referred to as "Christ". Or as Jesus being 'the Christ'.

The advent of this "Christ", to me, represents a revelation and a promise to humanity. The revelation is that God's divine spirit exists within us all, as we are God's creations (much like my sculptures embody my mind and spirit). And this divine spirit within us manifests as love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity. The promise, then, is that if we will set aside our own petty fears, and desires, and resentments, and allow this divine spirit within us to become us, we will be healed and saved from ourselves. And we can help to heal and save others. And if (hopefully when) we all, or enough of us adopt this way of being, the whole world will be healed and saved (from us). And we will find ourselves returned to "Eden".

I choose to accept this revelation and promise as being true. And so I try to live my life accordingly.
Yin and Yang are the 'here' and 'there', the 'now' and 'then', and the 'is' and 'is not' of how we humans perceive the phenomena of existing. The term "Tao" means "Way". Specifically, it means the way that existence, exists. Existence is an event taking place, and the Tao is the 'flow of it's being'. The flow of all being. But we humans cannot comprehend the Tao. It's both too simple, and too complex. So our minds break everything into a duality of opposites to try to help us comprehend the Tao. But it does not help. It simply is how our minds function.

These are the very first lines from the Tao Te Ching ...

"The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding."
and then this ...

"When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever."
This duality is recognized by Jesus as darkness and light. As our fear and desire and resentment driving us to act out in sinful ways, and as that divine spirit within us driving us to act out in loving and healing ways. While Taoism sees that duality in terms of an endless cycle of opposition (maintaining a perpetual balance).

But what's important about Taoism as a philosophy, for me, is that it begins with the realization that we humans are trapped by our own intelligence; and ignorance. We are clever enough to ask questions that we are not wise enough to answer. In Taoism, there are two realms of being. The Divine Realm, and the Material Realm. And we humans are kind of stuck, suspended within and between them both. A part of each, and yet not fully present in either.

And the solution to this dilemma is not to try and understand our way out of it, but to align ourselves with the 'flow' of it. The flow of intent from the Divine Realm, 'above', to it's manifestation in the Material Realm, 'below'. (Remember that 'above' and 'below' are illusions created by our dualistic thought process)

Both Taoism and Christianity are about living via faith. Both are about humbly accepting that we do not have "the truth", and so must align ourselves with it as it flows through us, and all around us.
This is all very detailed and thoughtful. Thank you for sharing. My only questions;

Are you able to understand that just because you have found the Tao wisdom and your acceptance of a certain version of one of the many stories concerning Jesus, his message and Christianity, a form that works for you and your understanding of existence and experience that you accept and find true. does not mean that you have actually found "The Truth", or for that matter there is an actual universal "Truth" which should be acceptable to all? Specifically the version you have personally found to be true?

As you rail against and make up your own explanations about those who sincerely tell you they do not believe in your version of reality, are you willing to proclaim, they are wrong and you actually do have the ultimate truth in your versions of what is and what is not?

This is my problem with your particular view of God, gods and human nature.You on one hand claim there is no way atheists can be telling the truth about their positions on the rejection of your gods, and in every next breath and thought, proclaim your version of thoughts to be the only valid ones hence calling everyone who disagrees with you to be liars.

It is interesting to me that on one hand you seem to be so knowledgeable about human nature and spirituality, and on the other, totally blind to your own biases and universal limitations to knowledge.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
This is all very detailed and thoughtful. Thank you for sharing. My only questions;

Are you able to understand that just because you have found the Tao wisdom and your acceptance of a certain version of one of the many stories concerning Jesus, his message and Christianity, a form that works for you and your understanding of existence and experience that you accept and find true. does not mean that you have actually found "The Truth", or for that matter there is an actual universal "Truth" which should be acceptable to all? Specifically the version you have personally found to be true?
Yes, I do understand this.
As you rail against and make up your own explanations about those who sincerely tell you they do not believe in your version of reality, are you willing to proclaim, they are wrong and you actually do have the ultimate truth in your versions of what is and what is not?
I object to disingenuous claims of "unbelief" because I know they are disingenuous, even if the person proclaiming it does not.
This is my problem with your particular view of God, gods and human nature.You on one hand claim there is no way atheists can be telling the truth about their positions on the rejection of your gods, and in every next breath and thought, proclaim your version of thoughts to be the only valid ones hence calling everyone who disagrees with you to be liars.
Proclaiming one's "unbelief" is not "telling one's truth". It's avoiding telling anyone anything while denying someone else's truth.
It is interesting to me that on one hand you seem to be so knowledgeable about human nature and spirituality, and on the other, totally blind to your own biases and universal limitations to knowledge.
That should make you think a little harder about your presumptions of my bias. But will it?
 

wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
I object to disingenuous claims of "unbelief" because I know they are disingenuous, even if the person proclaiming it does not
Good enough. I thought I would give it a go. Very odd indeed. I'm guessing not many people have accused you of being disingenuous about your beliefs. Mostly because others are not capable of reading your mind or would not claim to 'know' the sincerity of someone else's beliefs. I guess it doesn't matter how many hundreds of times you have been told you are wrong on this point of your magical abilities to know unbelievers are really closet believers, it just isn't reality or true. If you ever become a nonbeliever you may be able to understand how it works but apparently not until then. Carry on.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Good enough. I thought I would give it a go. Very odd indeed. I'm guessing not many people have accused you of being disingenuous about your beliefs.
There are two reasons for that. One is that almost no one ever asks me about what I 'believe', because honestly, mostly no one cares about that, but me. And mostly I don't care, either. Another reason is that if anyone objects to or is confused about my position regarding theism, I can and will explain it clearly, honestly, and logically, to them, so there is no misrepresentation or confusion. I'm not hiding behind empty negations (like "unbelief") and nonsensical presumptions and then sniping at the beliefs of others.
Mostly because others are not capable of reading your mind or would not claim to 'know' the sincerity of someone else's beliefs.
They don't need to read my mind. All they have to do is read my posts. :)
I guess it doesn't matter how many hundreds of times you have been told you are wrong on this point of your magical abilities to know unbelievers are really closet believers, it just isn't reality or true.
All I have to do is read their posts, and then I can tell them how and why I think they are being dishonest. How many times and how often this happens is not in my control. Nor is the fact that they cannot accept this criticism, and learn from it.
If you ever become a nonbeliever you may be able to understand how it works but apparently not until then. Carry on.
I am a "non-believer". Far more profoundly than you know. I live by faith, not "belief". I understand fully the infinite depths of what I cannot know. That's the Taoist in me.

Are you aware that Taoism neither accepts nor rejects the existence of any gods? From the Taoist perspective belief in gods is just a part of the 'Tao (way) of Man'. It's part of the way we humans exist. So there is no need to take a position one way or the other. To "believe" is human. To doubt is also human. So is our not knowing. So it's all 'part and parcel' from the Taoist's perspective. And mine, as well. Once we let go of these delusions of our own 'righteous knowledge', we are free to choose according to our own natures. Just as it should be.
 
Last edited:

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I object to disingenuous claims of "unbelief" because I know they are disingenuous, even if the person proclaiming it does not.

And when did you start thinking for me, or anyone else for that matter?

I object to ignorant people telling me my mind. But that never stops you making the false claim that everyone is wrong except you.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
And when did you start thinking for me, or anyone else for that matter?
I don't have to think for anyone. All I have to do is read what they post.
I object to ignorant people telling me my mind.
Then stop posting.
But that never stops you making the false claim that everyone is wrong except you.
I have never made any such claim. See, if you'd stop posting this kind of nonsense, you wouldn't get labeled 'disingenuous'.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don't have to think for anyone. All I have to do is read what they post.
Then stop posting.
I have never made any such claim. See, if you'd stop posting this kind of nonsense, you wouldn't get labeled 'disingenuous'.
I recommend less certainty, & more inquisitiveness.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I don't have to think for anyone. All I have to do is read what they post.

Abd make **** up to suite your ego

Then stop posting.

Do i report this or treat it as the self righteous idiocy that it is?

I have never made any such claim. See, if you'd stop posting this kind of nonsense, you wouldn't get labeled 'disingenuous'.

You make it all the time when you claim you know hiw other people think
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Abd make **** up to suite your ego



Do i report this or treat it as the self righteous idiocy that it is?



You make it all the time when you claim you know hiw other people think
Please stick to the content of the thread. This gibberish isn't going anywhere.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Please stick to the content of the thread. This gibberish isn't going anywhere.

You made the statement i replied to, don't shift your blame onto me. If yoo don't like people answering your comments then you know what to do, after all you suggest that too
 

wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
Proclaiming one's "unbelief" is not "telling one's truth". It's avoiding telling anyone anything while denying someone else's truth.

Why do you incorrectly assume that unbelievers haven't had their own versions of beliefs that they created themselves or combined from others and very much accepted as the truth of our existence?

This, as I see it, is where you fall down in your understanding of people who have believed many things before, but because of many different experiences or new knowledge gained on their own, no longer believe in what they may have believed before. Why can't you understand that many unbelievers really were believers at one time?

How would you go about explaining your unbelief in purple fairies on planet Yuoinp in the 8th universe right of black hole #1,980 in quadrant 9? Or your nonbelief in whatever it is you personally don't believe in? Is it really necessary to go through a line by line detail of what you don't believe and why you don't believe in it? Or is it enough just to say you don't believe others myths and stories or don't even believe in your own previously believed in stories and or experiences?

There are people who really do not believe in gods or ultimate powers, mystical happenings, universal consciousness, green men on Mars and a whole lot more. Most wouldn't bother explaining why they didn't believe in these things and if they did, some believers in gods and ultimate powers, etc still wouldn't believe what they were being told. As has been shown.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Why do you incorrectly assume that unbelievers haven't had their own versions of beliefs that they created themselves or combined from others and very much accepted as the truth of our existence?
What you and so many others refuse to understand is that no one cares what anyone else "believes in". And they care even less about what anyone else doesn't believe in. What is at issue is how one perceives and understands existence, and WHY. Until you're willing to engage on this level, you're just blowing smoke and sniping.

Either state your views, and accept the criticism, or shut up. But don't attack and negate the views of others, and then refuse to state or defend your own. And from what I see, that's all this whole "unbelief" BS is about. The atheist's "logic" is just as biased, flawed, and irrational as the theists that they attack. So they try and hide behind "unbelief" and phony agnosticism so they don't have to defend their own position.
How would you go about explaining your unbelief in purple fairies on planet Yuoinp in the 8th universe right of black hole #1,980 in quadrant 9? Or your nonbelief in whatever it is you personally don't believe in?
I don't have to, because no one cares. Not even me.
There are people who really do not believe in gods or ultimate powers, mystical happenings, universal consciousness, green men on Mars and a whole lot more. Most wouldn't bother explaining why they didn't believe in these things and if they did, some believers in gods and ultimate powers, etc still wouldn't believe what they were being told. As has been shown.
No one cares what you, or I, or they believe or don't believe. What we care about is what you think existence is about. And why you think so. We share these ideas with each other because existence is a mystery, and we want to understand it, better. We critique each other's theories to better understand them, and to determine what of them makes sense to us, and what doesn't.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
What do you think existence is about and why do you think so?
I have no knowledge of why existence, exists, but I feel there is something important in it about expressing the 'Divine'. That is expressing divine characteristics like love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity through the way we think, and live. Because doing so enhances the general experience of existing, while refusing to do so, diminishes it.

What do you think it's about?
 

wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
I'm out hiking I'll comment later. But I will start with asking you to define divine as you understand it, and how is what you think about that different from your and mine beliefs which no one cares about? How are divine attributes different than common human decency and empathy?
 
Top