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Xtians, I forget, What Do We Need a Saviour For?

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
DoorDash does not represent the Bible.
Are you making fun here?
Bible only please if you want to discuss Bible.
But the villains are actually the heroes because Jesus HAD to die to save us, right?
no. Killing innocents does not make you a heroe.

I disagree: God was able to design little tests in which you have true choice, so you can't blame God on any and every evil in the world.
Man was given the ability not to do bad all the time.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
You misunderstand -- you don't actually have to DO anything to merit somebody dying. You're born with it. You are, to quote Christopher Hitchens, "created sick and ordered to be well."

A bit bizarre, in my view, but that's what the religion says.

I believe we were created well but the devil lied to us, making us sick.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
But Jesus can’t be executed for our sins unless someone kills him. There is suicide, but given how often Jesus ran from his enemies, it’s clear he didn’t want to die. So much for sacrificing himself for us.
There is a happy news for the truthful followers of innocent Jesus that he did not die on the Cross, he didn't want to commit suicide as he was to show sign of Jonah. And he knew that Jonah went inside the belly of the fish alive and remained alive in the belly of the Fish and came out alive from the belly of the fish.
Yes, I understand, innocent Jesus was saved a cursed death on the Cross by Allah against all odds and after treatment of the injuries, inflicted on him on the Cross, in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea innocent Jesus migrated out of Judea and out of the Roman Empire. Right friends, please?

Regards
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I believe one may not enter into eternal life unless one is willing to give up sin. Salvation helps you to give up sin since it isn't that easy to do.

The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Where is the gospel of grace. We all sin even if we want to stop.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I believe they do. There are thousands of testimonies to that effect.

There are testimonies to the effect that people have been delivered from overwhelming sins and addictions but
the cleansing process takes time,,,,,,,,,,,,,a life time. It is at the resurrection we are made perfect and given a body that we are able to control and a mind that knows the truth and when we all know God.

1John 1:7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
There is a happy news for the truthful followers of innocent Jesus that he did not die on the Cross, he didn't want to commit suicide as he was to show sign of Jonah. And he knew that Jonah went inside the belly of the fish alive and remained alive in the belly of the Fish and came out alive from the belly of the fish.
Yes, I understand, innocent Jesus was saved a cursed death on the Cross by Allah against all odds and after treatment of the injuries, inflicted on him on the Cross, in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea innocent Jesus migrated out of Judea and out of the Roman Empire. Right friends, please?

Regards

Oh glory be to God!
No hang on, that means that Jesus did not die for our sins and the gospel is a lie and we aren't forgiven.
The prophecies say He would die, the story tells us He died and how He died. The preaching afterwards tells us He died on the cross. Historians tells us He died on the cross and Muhammad disagrees with them all.
That is a problem with Islam, it, like Baha'i, gets rid of the gospel and tells us the Bible is not true.
This makes them anti Christ, even if they say nice things about Jesus.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Oh glory be to God!
No hang on, that means that Jesus did not die for our sins and the gospel is a lie and we aren't forgiven.
The prophecies say He would die, the story tells us He died and how He died. The preaching afterwards tells us He died on the cross. Historians tells us He died on the cross and Muhammad disagrees with them all.
That is a problem with Islam, it, like Baha'i, gets rid of the gospel and tells us the Bible is not true.
This makes them anti Christ, even if they say nice things about Jesus.
Brian2 " that means that Jesus did not die for our sins and the gospel is a lie and we aren't forgiven."

Sure Jesus did not die for the sins of the Christianity people, I understand. The Christians should become of age and stop sinning anymore, please.
I didn't say that Bible is all wrong. If there is anything in Gospels that:
  1. Jesus said was revealed to him by God-the-father
  2. and or Jesus wrote himself
  3. and or Jesus dictated to somebody and
  4. has been correctly translated from the original manuscript in Aramaic, the mother tongue of Jesus.
that could be accepted as reliable, I undersand, please.
Right friend, please?
Is there anything like that, then please let know?

Regards
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Brian2 " that means that Jesus did not die for our sins and the gospel is a lie and we aren't forgiven."

Sure Jesus did not die for the sins of the Christianity people, I understand. The Christians should become of age and stop sinning anymore, please.

We all sin, even those who want to stop sinning. Christians want to stop sinning, but that does not mean they have overcome all sin in their life. This is the same will all people in all religions and those with no religion. So we all need God's forgiveness and the way God chose to gain forgiveness for us is by sending His Son to suffer and die and take the punishment due our sins on Himself.
The Jews already had the Law of God. Laws do not bring us forgiveness, they just show how much we sin and bring us condemnation.

I didn't say that Bible is all wrong. If there is anything in Gospels that:
  1. Jesus said was revealed to him by God-the-father
  2. and or Jesus wrote himself
  3. and or Jesus dictated to somebody and
  4. has been correctly translated from the original manuscript in Aramaic, the mother tongue of Jesus.
that could be accepted as reliable, I undersand, please.
Right friend, please?
Is there anything like that, then please let know?
Regards

Jesus said all that He was saying was from God His Father.
Jesus did not write the New Testament but Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would remind His disciples of what He had said to them.
Jesus said that His words would never pass away.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
We all sin, even those who want to stop sinning. Christians want to stop sinning, but that does not mean they have overcome all sin in their life. This is the same will all people in all religions and those with no religion. So we all need God's forgiveness and the way God chose to gain forgiveness for us is by sending His Son to suffer and die and take the punishment due our sins on Himself.
The Jews already had the Law of God. Laws do not bring us forgiveness, they just show how much we sin and bring us condemnation.

Jesus said all that He was saying was from God His Father.
Jesus did not write the New Testament but Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would remind His disciples of what He had said to them.
Jesus said that His words would never pass away.
Brian2 " the way God chose to gain forgiveness for us is by sending His Son to suffer and die and take the punishment due our sins on Himself."

It is a wrong notion, I understand, fabricated by Sinful Paul, Sinful Church, Sinful Christian-missionaries and Sinful Priesthood of all shades of Christendom collectively to deviate the credulous lovers of innocent Jesus son of Mary from his good teachings, please? Right friend, please?
YHVH whom innocent Jesus used to pray and worship and used to addressed Him as "God-the-Father", I understand, was never so cruel to get Jesus killed without having done any wrong himself. Right friend, please?
It is sheer injustice, if one could reflect with reason, please. Right friend, please?

Regards
 

night912

Well-Known Member
We are not being punished.....we are the victims caught up in a tussle between the forces of good and evil. We are the subjects of a rescue mission. Its not our fight, but we can choose sides...in fact we must because, according to the Bible (which you are free to ignore) there is already an established winner in this fight.....so who would choose to be on the side of the loser?
Then it don't have to choose sides, it's all for entertainment just like the WWE. And since it's not real, we're not really in any sort of danger. So we are not really getting rescue. I'll just wait and get their autographs after the show.

But if it's not for entertainment, one has to wonder. Is the one playing the role as the evil being really evil? Or is the one who deceives you by setting up a predetermined winner in order get humanity to worship that winner?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Brian2 said:
We all sin, even those who want to stop sinning. Christians want to stop sinning, but that does not mean they have overcome all sin in their life. This is the same will all people in all religions and those with no religion. So we all need God's forgiveness and the way God chose to gain forgiveness for us is by sending His Son to suffer and die and take the punishment due our sins on Himself.
The Jews already had the Law of God. Laws do not bring us forgiveness, they just show how much we sin and bring us condemnation.

Jesus said all that He was saying was from God His Father.
Jesus did not write the New Testament but Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would remind His disciples of what He had said to them.
Jesus said that His words would never pass away.

Brian2 " the way God chose to gain forgiveness for us is by sending His Son to suffer and die and take the punishment due our sins on Himself."

It is a wrong notion, I understand, fabricated by Sinful Paul, Sinful Church, Sinful Christian-missionaries and Sinful Priesthood of all shades of Christendom collectively to deviate the credulous lovers of innocent Jesus son of Mary from his good teachings, please? Right friend, please?
YHVH whom innocent Jesus used to pray and worship and used to address Him as "God-the-Father", I understand, was never so cruel to get Jesus killed without having done any wrong himself. Right friend, please?
It is sheer injustice, if one could reflect with reason, please. Right friend, please?

Anybody else, please.

Regards
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
You say “it’s just a story”, yet the scriptures present themselves as the Word of God revealed to humanity and as literal, historical truth.
Never trust a god who tells you to just read the book. I can't have a relationship with a book. Either the deity exists and interacts or it doesn't.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Brian2 " the way God chose to gain forgiveness for us is by sending His Son to suffer and die and take the punishment due our sins on Himself."

It is a wrong notion, I understand, fabricated by Sinful Paul, Sinful Church, Sinful Christian-missionaries and Sinful Priesthood of all shades of Christendom collectively to deviate the credulous lovers of innocent Jesus son of Mary from his good teachings, please? Right friend, please?
YHVH whom innocent Jesus used to pray and worship and used to addressed Him as "God-the-Father", I understand, was never so cruel to get Jesus killed without having done any wrong himself. Right friend, please?
It is sheer injustice, if one could reflect with reason, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

Why is it injustice if Jesus agreed to come and suffer and die because He loves His Father and loves us?
YHWH's justice and mercy and righteousness have joined together in one person, Jesus, so that we can be forgiven because of God's gift to us, the one whom was chosen and whom was sinless and worthy to be a sacrifice for the sins of all of us.
Psalm 85:10 Love and faithfulness meet together;
righteousness and peace kiss each other.
Isaiah 52
13 See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him—
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness—
15 so he will sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
Genesis 22
6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

God provided His own firstborn for the sacrifice and His firstborn was willing.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Why is it injustice if Jesus agreed to come and suffer and die because He loves His Father and loves us?
YHWH's justice and mercy and righteousness have joined together in one person, Jesus, so that we can be forgiven because of God's gift to us, the one whom was chosen and whom was sinless and worthy to be a sacrifice for the sins of all of us.
Psalm 85:10 Love and faithfulness meet together;
righteousness and peace kiss each other.
Isaiah 52
13 See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him—
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness—
15 so he will sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
Genesis 22
6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

God provided His own firstborn for the sacrifice and His firstborn was willing.

Brian2 "Why is it injustice if Jesus agreed to come and suffer and die because He loves His Father and loves us?
"

It is all one's fancy. Jesus did not die on the Cross, in the first place. Right, please?

Regards
 
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