Audie
Veteran Member
OUhm...
I don't think so.
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OUhm...
I don't think so.
No, it is a translation issue. There are concepts that are hard to translate into English and this is one of them. See my response for an explaination.
evidently you've never read isaiah ch 66, or hosea 6:6.In this recent thread, people discussed why we need Jesus as savior.
This thread is about how his death was necessary according to the Bible.
According to Jewish tradition, there needs to be a sacrifice in order that the sins of mankind should be absolved.
Nevertheless, Richard Dawkins calls Jesus's death, a human sacrifice, "the most disgusting idea" he has ever heard.
(see Minute 3:19 of this video
However, Jesus's death was necessary for at least two reasons.
Here is the second one, as I see it: there needs to be a real compensation for all the damage that man does to His creation. Bible talks about it in Matthew 20:28.
Man damages his creation but can't pay.
So, Jesus offers his life for anyone who believes. On judgement day, believers can step before God and "pay" with this, as if it was a token given to believers only. And God accepts.
Richard Dawkins forgets this second aspect of Jesus's death.
Since God accepts Jesus's death as a real compensation, this death must have been of value for God.
In my opinion, this value consists of but is not limited to:
1) demonstrating what would probably happen if God showed up again without using his extra powers...
2) presenting an example of what would happen/ of what happens if someone behaves normally. This serves as education for mankind. And God loves mankind.
3) having had the opportunity to show up on earth at all (without using extra -powers). If God wanted to heal some sick and give a lesson on ethics, then death is what people want him to be subjected to. This death comes with the territory of God's appearance on earth and Jesus was the one willing to undergo it - including the torture.
I mean if God does not want to use extra powers every single time and present himself as truely human.
So this was of true value for God. Please also consider all the working hours that Jesus spent on earth.
Jesus is kind enough that anyone believing in him may claim this "money" as a token for compensation on judgement day, this is at least my interpretation of what I read in the Bible.
Thomas
How would it do that, exactly?* The cross proved the authority of Christ to teach and the “truth” of what he taught.
Could one also say that it is procedure rather than fairness which prevails and that the answer to 'Why' goes unresolved?So, not sacrifice/absolution, but death/atonement.
Simply the while "Jewish tradition does not teach that sacrifice is needed in order to absolve sin" it does teach that blood-guilt must be atoned with blood.Could one also say that it is procedure rather than fairness which prevails and that the answer to 'Why' goes unresolved?
Never.I'm having a hard time parsing this post of yours and think you are trying to kill me.
How would it do that, exactly?
"The point" varies greatly depending on which Christian you're talking to. Many (e.g. the OP, apparently) put a special emphasis on the death, separate from the resurrection.
According to Jewish tradition, Charity is greater than sacrifice.According to Jewish tradition, there needs to be a sacrifice in order that the sins of mankind should be absolved.
In this recent thread, people discussed why we need Jesus as savior.
This thread is about how his death was necessary according to the Bible.
According to Jewish tradition, there needs to be a sacrifice in order that the sins of mankind should be absolved.
Nevertheless, Richard Dawkins calls Jesus's death, a human sacrifice, "the most disgusting idea" he has ever heard.
(see Minute 3:19 of this video
However, Jesus's death was necessary for at least two reasons.
Here is the second one, as I see it: there needs to be a real compensation for all the damage that man does to His creation. Bible talks about it in Matthew 20:28.
Man damages his creation but can't pay.
So, Jesus offers his life for anyone who believes. On judgement day, believers can step before God and "pay" with this, as if it was a token given to believers only. And God accepts.
Richard Dawkins forgets this second aspect of Jesus's death.
Since God accepts Jesus's death as a real compensation, this death must have been of value for God.
In my opinion, this value consists of but is not limited to:
1) demonstrating what would probably happen if God showed up again without using his extra powers...
2) presenting an example of what would happen/ of what happens if someone behaves normally. This serves as education for mankind. And God loves mankind.
3) having had the opportunity to show up on earth at all (without using extra -powers). If God wanted to heal some sick and give a lesson on ethics, then death is what people want him to be subjected to. This death comes with the territory of God's appearance on earth and Jesus was the one willing to undergo it - including the torture.
I mean if God does not want to use extra powers every single time and present himself as truely human.
So this was of true value for God. Please also consider all the working hours that Jesus spent on earth.
Jesus is kind enough that anyone believing in him may claim this "money" as a token for compensation on judgement day, this is at least my interpretation of what I read in the Bible.
Thomas
Jesus had mentioned it earlier:How would it do that, exactly?
I'm less concerned with what Christian belief was originally - or with what some think Christian belief ought to be - than the spectrum of beliefs that Christians today actually hold.Christus Victor was the original "model" or theory of salvation, espoused by practically all of the Church Fathers - emphasizing the "victory" of Jesus as the giver of eternal life from God the Father, triumphing over the darkness of a world in the bondage of death, "the wages of sin".
Interesting you bring up that movie.So, that's my 'neat' summary of Christian soteriologies. Many of the contemporary iterations of salvation theology - especially in the Protestant churches and as exhibited in that garish horror-porn fest that was heretical-schismatic 'traditionalist' Catholic Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ (ughhhh!) - would have been most alien to Christians living in the first, second and third through to fifth centuries.
Ah... so not his death by torture so much as his resurrection, but acknowledging that someone can't rise from the dead unless they're dead.Jesus had mentioned it earlier:
18 The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
Remember, I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
They all watched him die. Body dead! The apostles went into hiding, confused, depressed! Mary went to redo the grave wrap. She was shocked to discover Jesus alive and in a new form. The apostles STILL doubted! More reports were coming In, sightings of the resurrected Jesus. Then, he suddenly appears to the apostles!Ah... so not his death by torture so much as his resurrection, but acknowledging that someone can't rise from the dead unless they're dead.
Triumphant Life. Sooooo much had already happened before the tragic death. But because the resurrection was that last and greatest miracle, they sort of forgot his life and focus on his death and resurrection.Triumph is being tortured to death?
In this recent thread, people discussed why we need Jesus as savior.
This thread is about how his death was necessary according to the Bible.
According to Jewish tradition, there needs to be a sacrifice in order that the sins of mankind should be absolved.
Nevertheless, Richard Dawkins calls Jesus's death, a human sacrifice, "the most disgusting idea" he has ever heard.
(see Minute 3:19 of this video
However, Jesus's death was necessary for at least two reasons.
Here is the second one, as I see it: there needs to be a real compensation for all the damage that man does to His creation. Bible talks about it in Matthew 20:28.
Man damages his creation but can't pay.
So, Jesus offers his life for anyone who believes. On judgement day, believers can step before God and "pay" with this, as if it was a token given to believers only. And God accepts.
Richard Dawkins forgets this second aspect of Jesus's death.
Since God accepts Jesus's death as a real compensation, this death must have been of value for God.
In my opinion, this value consists of but is not limited to:
1) demonstrating what would probably happen if God showed up again without using his extra powers...
2) presenting an example of what would happen/ of what happens if someone behaves normally. This serves as education for mankind. And God loves mankind.
3) having had the opportunity to show up on earth at all (without using extra -powers). If God wanted to heal some sick and give a lesson on ethics, then death is what people want him to be subjected to. This death comes with the territory of God's appearance on earth and Jesus was the one willing to undergo it - including the torture.
I mean if God does not want to use extra powers every single time and present himself as truely human.
So this was of true value for God. Please also consider all the working hours that Jesus spent on earth.
Jesus is kind enough that anyone believing in him may claim this "money" as a token for compensation on judgement day, this is at least my interpretation of what I read in the Bible.
Thomas
Isn't this just a rephrasing of what I said?They all watched him die. Body dead! The apostles went into hiding, confused, depressed! Mary went to redo the grave wrap. She was shocked to discover Jesus alive and in a new form. The apostles STILL doubted! More reports were coming In, sightings of the resurrected Jesus. Then, he suddenly appears to the apostles!
God the Son never died, only the temp mortal form he took on during the incarnate life.
That's the "proof" to his followers.
In this recent thread, people discussed why we need Jesus as savior.
This thread is about how his death was necessary according to the Bible.
According to Jewish tradition, there needs to be a sacrifice in order that the sins of mankind should be absolved.
Nevertheless, Richard Dawkins calls Jesus's death, a human sacrifice, "the most disgusting idea" he has ever heard.
(see Minute 3:19 of this video
However, Jesus's death was necessary for at least two reasons.
Here is the second one, as I see it: there needs to be a real compensation for all the damage that man does to His creation. Bible talks about it in Matthew 20:28.
Man damages his creation but can't pay.
So, Jesus offers his life for anyone who believes. On judgement day, believers can step before God and "pay" with this, as if it was a token given to believers only. And God accepts.
Richard Dawkins forgets this second aspect of Jesus's death.
Since God accepts Jesus's death as a real compensation, this death must have been of value for God.
In my opinion, this value consists of but is not limited to:
1) demonstrating what would probably happen if God showed up again without using his extra powers...
2) presenting an example of what would happen/ of what happens if someone behaves normally. This serves as education for mankind. And God loves mankind.
3) having had the opportunity to show up on earth at all (without using extra -powers). If God wanted to heal some sick and give a lesson on ethics, then death is what people want him to be subjected to. This death comes with the territory of God's appearance on earth and Jesus was the one willing to undergo it - including the torture.
I mean if God does not want to use extra powers every single time and present himself as truely human.
So this was of true value for God. Please also consider all the working hours that Jesus spent on earth.
Jesus is kind enough that anyone believing in him may claim this "money" as a token for compensation on judgement day, this is at least my interpretation of what I read in the Bible.
Thomas
FYI: there's the disgusting part.Since God accepts Jesus's death as a real compensation, this death must have been of value for God.