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Is according to Jews everything God's will?

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
The Christian bible version of Job does promote Avodah Zara which is why we Jews were commanded by Hashem to reject such Christian versions. That is why one doesn't find Christian theological ideas in the Hebrew Tanakh. Thus, Christian missionaries have gone to extreme lengths to fool Jews. Christian translations are one method that they use.


Other Jewish beliefs about the Messiah could also be considered Avodah Zara by some interpretations of the Tanakh. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia
Most of Jesus's teachings were intelligible and acceptable in terms of Second Temple Judaism; what set Christians apart from Jews was their faith in Christ as the resurrected messiah.[19] While Christianity acknowledges only one ultimate Messiah, Judaism can be said to hold to a concept of multiple messiahs. The two most relevant are the Messiah ben Joseph and the traditional Messiah ben David. Some scholars have argued that the idea of two messiahs, one suffering and the second fulfilling the traditional messianic role, was normative to ancient Judaism, predating Jesus. Jesus would have been viewed by many as one or both.

Jewish messianism has its root in the apocalyptic literature of the 2nd century BCE to the 1st century CE, promising a future "anointed" leader or Messiah to resurrect the Israelite "Kingdom of God", in place of the foreign rulers of the time. According to Shaye J.D. Cohen, Jesus's failure to establish an independent Israel, and his death at the hands of the Romans, caused many Jews to reject him as the Messiah.[24][note 3] Jews at that time were expecting a military leader as a Messiah, such as Bar Kokhba.

Many Jews use the term the Messiah, and some say that there are multiple Messiahs. Both can't be true. To the Jews who believe in one Messiah, even the ones who don't believe in Jesus, those other Messiahs are Avodah Zara. The Torah was completed before the 2nd century BCE and 1st century CE, so the beliefs in Jewish messianism are about interpretations and not necessarily what the Tanakh says. The Tanakh doesn't mention there being a military leader as the Messiah, its an interpretation.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
In verse 33 Job was pointing to the future hope of the Messiah. An arbiter is a mediator and an advocate. That verse hints that the Messiah is more than a mere political figure. In Job 19:25 says, "“For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth”. The Old Testament talks about the Messiah being the Redeemer and God in human form. God is not a man like us means that God is not one of us-God is our Father.
You claimed that the verses point to a mediator. I show you the text which says "no mediator" and now you claim that the verses point to a hope of the messiah? That's nowhere in the verses and no where is there a "God in human form."

I quoted the verses. You have seen the words (you even bolded them in your response). Yet you continue to claim the opposite.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
You claimed that the verses point to a mediator. I show you the text which says "no mediator" and now you claim that the verses point to a hope of the messiah? That's nowhere in the verses and no where is there a "God in human form."

I quoted the verses. You have seen the words (you even bolded them in your response). Yet you continue to claim the opposite.

Job 9:33, indirectly in certain translations, mentions a Mediator. Job 9:33 NIV: If only there were someone to mediate between us, someone to bring us together,

Job 19:25 refers to the Redeemer being God in human form. Job 19:25 - I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the ...

The Redeemer and Mediator refers to the Messiah. Jesus Is the Mediator, Advocate, and Redeemer in Job - Scott LaPierre

The Book of Job provides some of the greatest types and shadows of Jesus in the Old Testament. Although Job didn’t have the revelation that we have, he still looked forward to a Mediator, Advocate, and Redeemer. Centuries later, Jesus revealed Himself to be the reality and substance of Job’s words.

Job Needed a Mediator
He longed for a Person to stand between him and God:

Job asked: “Truly I know it is so, but how can a man be righteous before God?”

Job 9:1-2
This is the most important question people can ask, because it determines where we spend eternity. Job answered his question and explained why “a man [cannot] be righteous before God”:

If one wished to contend with Him, he could not answer Him one time out of a thousand. God is wise in heart and mighty in strength. Who has hardened himself against Him and prospered?

Job 9:3-4
Nobody can stand before God and respond to His questions. Job learned this the hard way when he was finally given his audience.

At the end of the chapter, Job explained the problem and necessary solution:

For He is not a man, as I am, that I may answer Him, and that we should go to court together. Nor is there any mediator between us, who may lay his hand on us both.

Job 9:32-33
He needed a Mediator to stand between God and him. First Timothy 2:5 says, “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” The words “lay his hand on us both” refer to bringing people together, which is how it is translated in some Bibles. Job was looking for Someone to reconcile him to God, and 2 Corinthians 5:18 says, “God has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ.”

Let Him (the Mediator) take His (God’s) rod away from me, And do not let dread of Him terrify me.

Job 9:34
A rod administers punishment, and Job wanted the Mediator to take away the judgment he deserved. But if God took it from him, He would have to administer the punishment to Someone else. Sins can’t go unpunished or God wouldn’t be just. Job expected his Mediator to receive his punishment.Isaiah 53:5 says Jesus “was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities.”

Then I would speak and not fear Him, but it is not so with me.

Job 9:35
Job could approach God confidently if the Mediator did what he described, but he knew that had not been done for him. Jesus has done this for us though: “We have boldness and access [to God] with confidence through faith in [Jesus]” (Ephesians 3:12).

After the Mediator took God’s rod away from Job, he would no longer “fear God.” But the words “it is not so with me” mean he knew it wasn’t within his power to accomplish this.

Job longed for the Mediator during his trials, and He is available to us when we suffer. Jesus allows us to “come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need” (Hebrews 4:16).

Job Looked Forward to His Mediator by Faith, Because Even He Wasn’t Righteous Enough
Job couldn’t see his Mediator. He didn’t know who He was, but he could look forward to Him in faith. This is Old Testament salvation, and it’s just like New Testament salvation: justification by faith. Consider the ways Job is described: “There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil” (Job 1:1; see also Job 1:8 and 2:3).

As far as earthly righteousness goes, nobody could do better than Job. But God says, “There is none who does good, no, not one” (Psalm 14:2-3, 53:2-3, quoted in Romans 3:10; see also Ecclesiastes 7:20, 1 Kings 8:46, 2 Chronicles 6:36, and Psalm 143:2). Job was arguably the greatest man in the Old Testament, but he wasn’t righteous enough in God’s eyes.

What Can We Learn From Job?
Job teaches there’s no righteousness man can attain that’s “good enough.” The religious leaders were the picture of self-imposed righteousness, but Jesus said:

Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven

Matthew 5:20
If Job and the religious leaders couldn’t attain a righteousness that’s acceptable to God, nobody can. Our hope comes from the righteousness that’s freely available by grace through faith in our Mediator:

The righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.

Romans 3:21-22
Job Needed an Advocate
He longed for an Advocate to plead his case:

“Surely even now my witness is in heaven, and my evidence is on high.”

Job 16:19
A witness (or advocate) speaks on behalf of someone else, and that is what Job wanted. He knew there was Someone to testify on his behalf, and he even knew this Person was “in heaven…on high.”

“My friends scorn me; my eyes pour out tears to God. Oh, that one might plead for a man with God, as a man pleads for his neighbor!”

Job 16:20–21
Job lost everything. Even his “friends” became his accusers. It would not be too much to say that he was the loneliest man in the world. In the face of so much desertion and criticism, he wanted someone on his side. He knew there was an Advocate to defend him the way “a man pleads for his neighbor.” When Job knew he did not have anyone else, he knew he had this Person.

Even if we feel as though we have lost everything, we “have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (1 John 2:1). When we suffer, He “is even at the right hand of God, [making] intercession for us” (Romans 8:34). If we feel as though we do not have anyone or anything else, we still have Jesus.

Job Needed a Redeemer
He longed for Someone to deliver him out of his suffering:

For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth. And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, that in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!

Job 19:25–27
Job knew his Redeemer was alive and He would stand on the earth at the end of time. Satan “struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head” (Job 2:7). Job said, “My flesh is caked with worms and dust, my skin is cracked and breaks out afresh” (Job 7:5). His flesh was in terrible shape, but he knew after it was “destroyed,” he would “see God in [his] flesh.” How could Job see God in his flesh if his flesh was destroyed? He expected to receive a new body:

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible (earthly bodies) must put on incorruption (glorified bodies), and this mortal (earthly bodies) must put on immortality (glorified bodies).

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Jesus. Spirit of life water oxygen sacrificed in gas reaction.

It's illumination.

Life needed the water oxygen mass.

To illuminate pretend Jesus equals immaculate.

O God earth in space stone.

Heavens separate in space. Gases and mass.

No human included as removed in thinking.

Magic that claim fake.

Immaculate. No natural balances.

Cold night not burning. Daylight burning.

The balance zero.

No burning. Nighttime removed already.

Science quotes day twenty four hours balanced.

Is natural by natural causes.

Immaculate. Natural spirit. Gases of God balanced.

Jesus imbalance. Life sacrificed. Should be highest life.

Jesus never highest life. Life in its suffering lesser life.

Falsely taught.

My father told me. His spirit message for his daughter. He knew.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
"Indirectly in certain translations"? And yet directly, and in the Hebrew, it says the opposite.
Job 19:25 refers to the Redeemer being God in human form. Job 19:25 - I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the ...
The one who will speak up for Job exists, according to Job, but nothing in the text suggests that this refers to God in or out of human form. Imagining that any of this refers to Jesus is the tail wagging the dog.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
"Indirectly in certain translations"? And yet directly, and in the Hebrew, it says the opposite.

The one who will speak up for Job exists, according to Job, but nothing in the text suggests that this refers to God in or out of human form. Imagining that any of this refers to Jesus is the tail wagging the dog.

The word daysman and mediator are synonyms.

That verse does refer to God, because only God is our redeemer. The New Testament talks about God walking the earth. "For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;"
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The word daysman and mediator are synonyms.

That verse does refer to God, because only God is our redeemer. The New Testament talks about God walking the earth. "For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;"
9:33 uses the word "mochi'ach" (one who proves) and says none exists. 19:25 uses "go'ali" (redeemer), a word used textually to refer to an avenger of blood after a manslaughter, and one who redeems property which has been set aside, among other things. You should read up in Numbers 5:8. So while you might want to see it as referring to God here, it does not need to.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
9:33 uses the word "mochi'ach" (one who proves) and says none exists. 19:25 uses "go'ali" (redeemer), a word used textually to refer to an avenger of blood after a manslaughter, and one who redeems property which has been set aside, among other things. You should read up in Numbers 5:8. So while you might want to see it as referring to God here, it does not need to.

Kinsman redeemers were not people who had the role of a Messiah or a Savior, they had the role of acting on behalf of a relative. What is a kinsman redeemer? | GotQuestions.org

What is a kinsman redeemer?

Question: "What is a kinsman redeemer?"

Answer:
The kinsman-redeemer is a male relative who, according to various laws of the Pentateuch, had the privilege or responsibility to act on behalf of a relative who was in trouble, danger, or need. The Hebrew term (go el) for kinsman-redeemer designates one who delivers or rescues (Genesis 48:16; Exodus 6:6) or redeems property or person (Leviticus 27:9–25, 25:47–55). The kinsman who redeems or vindicates a relative is illustrated most clearly in the book of Ruth, where the kinsman-redeemer is Boaz.

The story of Ruth and Boaz begins when Ruth and her mother-in-law, Naomi, return to Bethlehem from Moab where they had been living. Naomi’s husband and both sons, one the husband of Ruth, had died, leaving the women penniless and without a male protector. Upon arriving in Bethlehem, Naomi sends Ruth to glean in the fields of Boaz, a wealthy relative of Naomi to whom they, through a series of divinely appointed circumstances, appeal as their go el. Boaz acquiesces, willingly takes Ruth as his wife, and together they bear a son named Obed who became the grandfather of David, the forefather of Jesus.

Yahweh is Israel’s Redeemer, the one who promises to defend and vindicate them. He is both Father and Deliverer (Exodus 20:2). There are numerous Old Testament appeals to God as rescuer of the weak and needy (Psalm 82:4; Daniel 6:27; Jeremiah 20:13) and preserver of the sheep of Israel (Ezekiel 34:10–12, 22).

In the New Testament, Christ is often regarded as an example of a kinsman-redeemer because, as our brother (Hebrews 2:11), He also redeems us because of our great need, one that only He can satisfy. In Ruth 3:9, we see a beautiful and poignant picture of the needy supplicant, unable to rescue herself, requesting of the kinsman-redeemer that he cover her with his protection, redeem her, and make her his wife. In the same way, the Lord Jesus Christ bought us for Himself, out of the curse, out of our destitution; made us His own beloved bride; and blessed us for all generations. He is the true kinsman-redeemer of all who call on Him in faith.

Job said that no mediator exists, because he was talking about the hope of the future Messiah. How does the Hebrew word about one who proves disagree with the idea of the Mediator being the Messiah advocating for us before God? Just because the word for Redeemer in the Hebrew has meanings about property doesn't mean that it also doesn't have meanings about forgiveness.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
These threads are always the same.

"I just have a question to our Jewish friends"
That's where the lie starts, there never was a question and neither are we seen as friends.
It's just a pretext to get to the real issue: Debating with Jews about why they are so stupid in not accepting Jesus/Mohammed/Baháʼu'lláh.

It gets really sad when they think that we can't see through that.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Kinsman redeemers were not people who had the role of a Messiah or a Savior, they had the role of acting on behalf of a relative. What is a kinsman redeemer? | GotQuestions.org
Except that they were called textually by the same language used in Job, so any conclusion you draw based on what the text says, which excludes them, is flawed.

Job said that no mediator exists, because he was talking about the hope of the future Messiah. How does the Hebrew word about one who proves disagree with the idea of the Mediator being the Messiah advocating for us before God? Just because the word for Redeemer in the Hebrew has meanings about property doesn't mean that it also doesn't have meanings about forgiveness.
Are you now saying that the particular language doesn't matter? You have often quoted the words and made the point that the words indicate a specific role or person. Just because the word for redeemer has meanings about forgiveness doesn't mean it doesn't have meanings about property. You can certainly enjoy your interpretation, but should see it as an agendized and selective interpretation driven by the reverse engineering based on the theological needs created in the gospels.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Except that they were called textually by the same language used in Job, so any conclusion you draw based on what the text says, which excludes them, is flawed.


Are you now saying that the particular language doesn't matter? You have often quoted the words and made the point that the words indicate a specific role or person. Just because the word for redeemer has meanings about forgiveness doesn't mean it doesn't have meanings about property. You can certainly enjoy your interpretation, but should see it as an agendized and selective interpretation driven by the reverse engineering based on the theological needs created in the gospels.

Job wasn't referring to God as a kinsman redeemer, because a kinsman redeemer is a relative. There is nothing in the context of Job 19:25 that references God and property.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Job wasn't referring to God as a kinsman redeemer, because a kinsman redeemer is a relative. There is nothing in the context of Job 19:25 that references God and property.
There is nothing that references Jesus either. What there is is the use of a particular piece of language that is used elsewhere to refer to another idea. In post 166 you said " because only God is our redeemer" and yet I showed you how, textually, others are referred to as redeemer.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
There is nothing that references Jesus either. What there is is the use of a particular piece of language that is used elsewhere to refer to another idea. In post 166 you said " because only God is our redeemer" and yet I showed you how, textually, others are referred to as redeemer.

God can't be a kinsman redeemer or a property redeemer because there is no evidence in the text that property or relatives is what redeemer is referring to.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
God can't be a kinsman redeemer or a property redeemer because there is no evidence in the text that property or relatives is what redeemer is referring to.
But that verse also doesn't mention God. You decided it had to be God because the word for "redeemer" is in it and you cited a verse in which "redeemer" refers to God. Thing is, that same word is used elsewhere to refer to others. Your decision that it must refer to God is simply your preference, no more supported textually than any other option. In fact, as the next verse says that the redeemer will appear after the skin is stripped off, and then says that God will be recognized before that (while the speaker is still in his flesh), there is a major distinction between this redeemer and God - they CAN'T be the same thing.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
But that verse also doesn't mention God. You decided it had to be God because the word for "redeemer" is in it and you cited a verse in which "redeemer" refers to God. Thing is, that same word is used elsewhere to refer to others. Your decision that it must refer to God is simply your preference, no more supported textually than any other option. In fact, as the next verse says that the redeemer will appear after the skin is stripped off, and then says that God will be recognized before that (while the speaker is still in his flesh), there is a major distinction between this redeemer and God - they CAN'T be the same thing.

The context of the book of Job was about Job's hardship, not about kinsman redeemers or property redeemers. The verse that talks about Job's skin is a reference to Job's death. Job 19:26 Even after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God.

I believe that verse is a reference to Job believing he will meet Jesus.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Is a human the history of O planet they named as God in cosmic forming.

No.

No man is God.

Yet a man theoried about God.

So you placed a self innocent living thinking ability about history planet and know you are not God.

Your just consciousness as theist.

As you sacrificed attacked self thinker consciousness. Self voice image was recorded. Consciousness now never dies. Remains forever in God O earth gas spirits owned by its evolution.

God evolution is with first law womb.
Vacuum space.

No human owns that advice.

We however lived life supported within immaculate heavens which science burnt extra gas mass. We got life sacrificed as we are not energetic conversion.

Stephen Hawking warning.

When you personally claim you began in a place where no human even existed the intent is to end us with the concept.
Thinker strings one I own history.

Named heaven gases. You are not there. The gas spirit is. Consciousness says my thoughts naming it now own it.

How you lied to self human as a theist.

We live separately as humans in one heavenly mass . Water oxygenated.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The context of the book of Job was about Job's hardship, not about kinsman redeemers or property redeemers. The verse that talks about Job's skin is a reference to Job's death. Job 19:26 Even after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God.

I believe that verse is a reference to Job believing he will meet Jesus.
This translation might not lead you to that conclusion:

This, after my skin will have been peeled off. But I would behold God while still in my flesh,
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
But that verse also doesn't mention God. You decided it had to be God because the word for "redeemer" is in it and you cited a verse in which "redeemer" refers to God. Thing is, that same word is used elsewhere to refer to others. Your decision that it must refer to God is simply your preference, no more supported textually than any other option. In fact, as the next verse says that the redeemer will appear after the skin is stripped off, and then says that God will be recognized before that (while the speaker is still in his flesh), there is a major distinction between this redeemer and God - they CAN'T be the same thing.

Certain verses in the Bible and Tanakh have details that are not clear in the text, like whether Isaiah 7:14 is an explicit prophecy of the virgin birth. It's clear from the text that it's a prophecy of supernatural birth in the house of David of one called Immanuel, which was part of the larger complex of messianic prophecies that reach their fulfillment in the miraculous conception of Jesus.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Certain verses in the Bible and Tanakh have details that are not clear in the text, like whether Isaiah 7:14 is an explicit prophecy of the virgin birth. It's clear from the text that it's a prophecy of supernatural birth in the house of David of one called Immanuel, which was part of the larger complex of messianic prophecies that reach their fulfillment in the miraculous conception of Jesus.
I understand your religious belief but I wish you could see that you present it in a way which does not prove fruitful. Your first claim is that certain verses "have details that are not clear in the text."

Some might say, "no, they have the details that are clear, but you read in other ideas because you need the verses to say more." Others might say, "the details that are not clear are not at all what you think they are but since they are not clear, you miss them" while even others might say, "the details are clear if you read the text properly and in the right context."

Your next suggestion is that 7:14 has to do with a "virgin birth". That is no where in the verse and is a function of what you need to find, after the fact.

Then you say that something is "clear from the text." Thing is, no such thing is clear to many people. What is clear is that you are using eisegesis, starting from the conclusions you need to validate.

There are plenty of things I could say are "clear from the text" and I could either show you the explanations which show how clear they are, or I could just aver their truth with nothing other than my faith to support them. Neither would prove persuasive.
 
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