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Is according to Jews everything God's will?

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It is inconsistent with the teachings of the Tanach because it's completely novel and has no basis in it.

Since one of the Messiahs purposes was to teach us how to live (he was to be a rabbi and a teacher), wouldn't it make sense that he would give a new covenant? The Tanakh doesn't mention the future division of the Old and New Covenant when spreading the gospel to the gentiles, because those details weren't relevant to giving a description of who the Messiah was to be.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Since one of the Messiahs purposes was to teach us how to live (he was to be a rabbi and a teacher), wouldn't it make sense that he would give a new covenant?
That doesn't follow at all.

The Tanakh doesn't mention the future division of the Old and New Covenant when spreading the gospel to the gentiles, because those details weren't relevant to giving a description of who the Messiah was to be.
It also doesn't mention the future giving of the Qur'an, because that detail wasn't relevant.

Are you really being serious?!?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The Messiah suffering terribly before being highly exalted doesn't sound like the kings talking about themselves.
But no messiah is mentioned and the plural noun "kings" is explicitly listed.
It sounds like some people believe that verse is a reference to Israel suffering because of the mistakes of the kings, but other explanations seem more likely.
It doesn't sound like that because Isaiah clearly identifies the servant with the nation of Israel. No other reading is as likely.

The kings of Israel were not highly disfigured in their suffering.
Good think I didn;t say it was the kings of Isael.
Isaiah 53:5 is a reference to the Roman soldier piercing Jesus.
No, it isn't.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The different interpretations indicate that a lot of this is informed guesswork and opinion. When the messiah comes, all will acknowledge he is the messiah. If people don't then he isn't.
Who Is Moshiach (the Jewish Messiah)?

Will Moshiach know that he is Moshiach?

When Moshiach comes how will people know about God?

Who is the Messiah?

Saul was a king -- the people wanted one and he was chosen. In the battle against Amalek he second guessed God and was punished for it by losing his kingship to David, also chosen by God.

As to whether something was "God's will" -- that's the same problematic phrase. Everything is according to what God knows and intends. It can't be otherwise.
As far as informed guesswork, and I'm not disputing that fact, would you say it's like evolution as far as timetables and evidence scientists say show mankind is not approximately 6,000 years in existence rather than what the Bible says about God creating by design the heavens, the earth and eventually Adam and Eve? How do you feel about that?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The different interpretations indicate that a lot of this is informed guesswork and opinion. When the messiah comes, all will acknowledge he is the messiah. If people don't then he isn't.
Who Is Moshiach (the Jewish Messiah)?

Will Moshiach know that he is Moshiach?

When Moshiach comes how will people know about God?

Who is the Messiah?

Saul was a king -- the people wanted one and he was chosen. In the battle against Amalek he second guessed God and was punished for it by losing his kingship to David, also chosen by God.

As to whether something was "God's will" -- that's the same problematic phrase. Everything is according to what God knows and intends. It can't be otherwise.
I understand there's latitude in understanding what God's will is, and how it is exercised. For instance, the Bible (or Tanach) clearly says that the earth will be beautiful someday where the righteous will be. I quote one scripture from psalms to show this wonderful promise. Psalm 37:29. "The righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it permanently."
I am happy to review that scriptural thought. May you have a good day.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
That doesn't follow at all.


It also doesn't mention the future giving of the Qur'an, because that detail wasn't relevant.

Are you really being serious?!?

The Quran is not consistent with the Tanakh because it contradicts what the Tanakh teaches about Ishmael. It teaches that the Messiah was a prophet who came and pretended to die on the cross. Isa never mentioned a New Covenant. The teachings of Jesus are similar to the teachings in the Tanakh-God being a personal Father. Jesus talked about the Trinity-which matched the term Elohim in the Old Testament. Allah is distant. In Islam Allah is omnipotent but is distant and not personally involved with people. Allah of Islam, Is He Yahweh God of the Bible?

Yahweh manifested in human form and took on a human nature. Allah did neither:

"So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Then the man said, 'Let me go, for it is daybreak.' But Jacob replied, 'I will not let you go unless you bless me.' The man asked him, 'What is your name?' 'Jacob,' he answered. Then the man said, 'Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.' Jacob said, 'Please tell me your name.' But he replied, 'Why do you ask my name?' Then he blessed him there. So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, 'It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.’" Genesis 32:24-30

"Micaiah said, 'Therefore, hear the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left. The LORD said, "Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?" And one said this while another said that. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, "I will entice him." The LORD said to him, "How?" And he said, "I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets." Then He said, "You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so." Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you.'" 1 Kings 22:19-23

"In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called out to another and said, 'Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory.' And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. Then I said, 'Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.'" Isaiah 6:1-5

"And above the firmament over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne WAS A LIKENESS AS IT WERE OF A HUMAN FORM. And upward from what had the appearance OF HIS LOINS I saw as it were gleaming bronze, like the appearance of fire enclosed round about; and downward from what had the appearance OF HIS LOINS I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and there was brightness round about him. Like the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud on the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard the voice of one speaking. AND HE SAID TO ME, ‘Son of man, stand upon your feet, and I will speak with you.’ And when he spoke to me, the Spirit entered into me and set me upon my feet; and I heard him speaking to me. AND HE SAID TO ME, ‘Son of man, I SEND YOU TO THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, to a nation of rebels, WHO HAVE REBELLED AGAINST ME; they and their fathers HAVE TRANSGRESSED AGAINST ME to this very day. The people also are impudent and stubborn: I send you to them; and you shall say to them, "THUS SAYS THE LORD GOD." And whether they hear or refuse to hear (for they are a rebellious house) they will know that there has been a prophet among them. And you, son of man, be not afraid of them, nor be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns are with you and you sit upon scorpions; be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, for they are a rebellious house. And you shall speak MY WORDS TO THEM, whether they hear or refuse to hear; for they are a rebellious house. But you, son of man, hear what I say to you; be not rebellious like that rebellious house; open your mouth, and eat what I give you.’ And when I looked, behold, A HAND WAS STRETCHED OUT TO ME, and, lo, a written scroll was in it; AND HE SPREAD IT BEFORE ME; and it had writing on the front and on the back, and there were written on it words of lamentation and mourning and woe." Ezekiel 1:26-28, 2:1-10

Ezekiel clearly sees a human figure that he identifies as the glory of the Lord coming to speak to him. The man proceeds to speak to Ezekiel and identifies himself as the sovereign Yahweh. Thus, here is another instance where an OT prophet sees God appearing as a man.

"I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire. A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened." Daniel 7:9-10

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was madeHe was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him… And the Word BECAME flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:1-3, 10, 14

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," Colossians 2:9

Yahweh is Spirit, and also has an eternal Spirit, whereas Allah is not a spirit:

The following Muslim scholar, while grossly distorting the Bible’s teaching, has this to say about Allah being a spirit:

3. In the third aspect of Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat Allaah is referred to without giving Him the attributes of His creation. For example, it is claimed in the Bible and Torah that Allaah spent the first six days creating the universe then slept on the seventh.23 For this reason, Jews and Christians take either Saturday or Sunday as a day of rest in which work is looked at as a sin. Such a claim assigns to God the attributes of His creation. It is man who tires after heavy work and needs sleep to recuperate.24 Elsewhere in the Bible and Torah, God is portrayed as repenting for His bad thoughts in the same way that humans do when they realize their errors.25 Similarly the claim that God is a spirit or has a spirit completely ruins this area of Tawheed. Allaah does not refer to Himself as a spirit anywhere in the Qur'aan nor does His Prophet (saws) express anything of that nature in Hadeeth. In fact, Allaah refers to the spirit as part of His creation.26 (Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips, The Fundamentals of Tawheed (Islamic Monotheism), Chapter 1, Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat (Maintaining the Unity of Allaah's Names and Attributes): Source)

Another website writes:

The spirit or soul is not one of the attributes of Allaah, rather it is one of the things that have been created by Allaah. It is mentioned in conjunction with Allaah in some texts by way of honouring, for Allaah is its Creator and Sovereign, He takes it (in death) whenever He wills and He sends it whenever He wills.

What we say about the spirit is the same as what we say about the "House of Allaah", the "she-camel of Allaah", the "slaves of Allaah" and the "Messenger of Allaah". All of these created things are mentioned in conjunction with Allaah by way of honouring. (Question #50774: He is debating with a Christian and is asking: Does God has a spirit?)

Contrast this, again, with God’s true Word:

"Now the Egyptians are men and not God, And their horses are flesh and not spirit; So the LORD will stretch out His hand, And he who helps will stumble And he who is helped will fall, And all of them will come to an end together." Isaiah 31:3

"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." John 4:23-24

"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit." 2 Corinthians 3:17-18

"how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the ETERNAL Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God." Hebrews 9:14

Related to this point is the belief of Salafi Muslims like Abualrub that Allah actually has hands, feet, shins, a face etc., even though these things are unlike anything in creation. In other words, Abualrub believes that Allah has a body of some kind which is unlike any other body in all creation!

[1] All that has been revealed in Allah's Book [the Qur'an] as regards the [Sifat…] Qualities of Allah…, the Most High,- like His Face, Eyes, Hands, Shins, (Legs), His Coming, His Istawa (rising over) His Throne and others; His Qualities or all that Allah's Messenger... qualified Him in the true authentic Prophet's Ahadith (narrations) as regards His Qualities like [Nuzul… His Descent or His laughing and others etc. The religious scholars of the Qur'an and the Sunna believe in these Qualities of Allah and they confirm that these are really His Qualities, without Ta'wil… (interpreting their meanings into different things etc.) or Tashbih… (giving resemblance or similarity to any of the creatures) or Ta'til… (i.e. completely ignoring or denying them i.e. there is no Face, or Eyes or Hands, or Shins etc. for Allah). These Qualities befit or suit only Allah Alone, and He does not resemble any of (His) creatures. As Allah's Statements (in the Qur'an): (1) "There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer" (V.42:11). (2) There is none comparable unto Him (V.112:4). (Al-Imam Zain-ud-Din Ahmad bin Abdul Lateef Az-Zubaidi, The Translation of the Meanings of Summarized Sahih Al-Bukhari Arabic-English, Translated by: Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan [Maktaba Dar-us-Salam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh Saudi Arabia], p. 842)
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
As far as informed guesswork, and I'm not disputing that fact, would you say it's like evolution as far as timetables and evidence scientists say show mankind is not approximately 6,000 years in existence rather than what the Bible says about God creating by design the heavens, the earth and eventually Adam and Eve? How do you feel about that?
I'm not sure what you are asking. Do you want to know if I am a young earth creationist? Or if I take the creation account literally?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
But no messiah is mentioned and the plural noun "kings" is explicitly listed.

It doesn't sound like that because Isaiah clearly identifies the servant with the nation of Israel. No other reading is as likely.


Good think I didn;t say it was the kings of Isael.

No, it isn't.

Kings are mentioned because when Jesus rules in the future, he will be the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The man of sorrows is a reference to the Messiah, not kings.

Isaiah 53 - Wikipedia

The following evaluation of the Servant by the "many nations, kings", and "we" Isaiah 52:15 is quite negative

That is similar to the verse in the New Testament where the crowds said crucify him, about Jesus. Israel is not a servant because there is no reason they would be a servant to anyone. Jesus served us when he went to the cross for our sins.

What king of Israel was highly disfigured and was pierced? Those verses are a reference to Jesus, who was pierced for our iniquities. The New Testament calls Jesus the King of the Jews.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Kings are mentioned because when Jesus rules in the future, he will be the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The man of sorrows is a reference to the Messiah, not kings.
No, it is a reference to the nation. Kings are mentioned because the text is talking about kings.
What king of Israel was highly disfigured and was pierced? Those verses are a reference to Jesus, who was pierced for our iniquities. The New Testament calls Jesus the King of the Jews.
You quote something I didn't say, and I still didn't say anything about a king of Israel. They also don't mention piercing. Roger Miller calls himself the King of the Road. So?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
No, it is a reference to the nation. Kings are mentioned because the text is talking about kings.

You quote something I didn't say, and I still didn't say anything about a king of Israel. They also don't mention piercing. Roger Miller calls himself the King of the Road. So?

Israel is not a suffering servant. The kings of Israel served their nation, in the sense of a ruler whose job is to keep order, not in the traditional meaning of the term servant. Isaiah 53:5 mentions Jesus being pierced. Isaiah 53:5 But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.

Study Bible
The Suffering Servant
…4 Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows; yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.6 We all like sheep have gone astray, each one has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid upon Him the iniquity of us all.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Israel is not a suffering servant. The kings of Israel served their nation, in the sense of a ruler whose job is to keep order, not in the traditional meaning of the term servant. Isaiah 53:5 mentions Jesus being pierced. Isaiah 53:5 But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.
No, Israel is the suffering servant and again, I'm not talking about kings of Israel.
The Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 - Source Book

Isaiah 53:5 never mentions Jesus or the servant. It is part of the statement made by foreign kings when they realize that the nation of Israel suffered because of the sins that the foreign nations committed. This has been covered in other threads, if you would like me to find them for you.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
No, Israel is the suffering servant and again, I'm not talking about kings of Israel.
The Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 - Source Book

Isaiah 53:5 never mentions Jesus or the servant. It is part of the statement made by foreign kings when they realize that the nation of Israel suffered because of the sins that the foreign nations committed. This has been covered in other threads, if you would like me to find them for you.

How was Israel a servant? Isaiah 53:11 talks about the travail of his soul, many being justified, and their iniquities being born. Isaiah 53:3 refers to the Messiah as a Man of Sorrows. Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 53:11 - New International Version

Isaiah 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief. Like one from whom men hide their faces, He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
How was Israel a servant? Isaiah 53:11 talks about the travail of his soul, many being justified, and their iniquities being born. Isaiah 53:3 refers to the Messiah as a Man of Sorrows. Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 53:11 - New International Version

Isaiah 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief. Like one from whom men hide their faces, He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
How?

Isaiah 41:8

But, you Israel, are My servant; Jacob, whom I have chosen; seed of Abraham, My friend.

Isaiah 49:3

And He said to me: "You are My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified!"
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
How?

Isaiah 41:8

But, you Israel, are My servant; Jacob, whom I have chosen; seed of Abraham, My friend.

Isaiah 49:3

And He said to me: "You are My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified!"

Isaiah 52:13 refers to the Messiah as "my servant". The verse doesn't say my servant Jacob or my servant Israel. Isaiah 52:13 to 53:12 describe the servant. References to the servant as a people actually ends with Isaiah 48:20.

The servant is righteous and without guile. If this is the nation of Israel, it's a complete violation of the Torah. According to Torah, if the nation is righteous, then it will be blessed. If the nation is wicked it will be punished. The idea that the nation as a whole could be righteous and yet punished is completely unacceptable on a scriptural level. The text says the servant will be highly exalted, even to where kings stand in awe. That's not true of Israel, but it is true of Jesus, who's worshiped by kings and leaders around the world. Isaiah said that the servant's sufferings brought healing to the people. Israel has suffered through the ages, but their sufferings didn't bring healings to the nations that afflicted them. Isaiah refers to the origins of the Messiah as very lowly and inauspicious. Jesus was from Nazareth. Jesus was rejected, suffered, and died, and was utterly forsaken when he died.

The resurrection of the Messiah isn't mentioned in the Old Testament, but it's plainly implied. How does someone die and yet prolong his days? Clearly, the passages speaks of the servant's continued activities after his death. And there's only one explanation for that-resurrection. Isaiah refers to the nonviolence of God's servant. Jesus used a whip to drive money-changers out of the temple. The Tanakh uses the word hamas for violence, describing things like robbery. The money chargers only got a verbal rebuke for making the temple 'a den of robbers. There's no record of anyone being injured, and this incident wasn't even brought up at Jesus' trial, where nobody could accuse him of any wrongdoing. Through his ordeal, Jesus doesn't try to defend himself. He turns the other cheek, as he taught in the sermon on the mount. Isaiah 53 saying the servant will not lift his voice or cry out doesn't imply that Jesus isn't the Messiah. The context of that verse isn't literal. The context is the servant did not open his mouth but was led away like a lamb. Jesus wasn't crying when he said Father, forgive them. Isaiah 53 says the servant of the Lord will have descendants-or 'see seed' in the Hebrew. Jesus never married or had children. Seed can be used metaphorically, in terms of spiritual offspring. Isaiah calls Israel a seed of evildoers. Seed of evildoers means 'community of evildoers' or 'evildoers to the core.' The Hebrew word for 'seed' can mean 'a future generation' without reference to specific descendants of one individual in particular. Isaiah 53 doesn't say that the Messiah will see his seed. I think it's appropriate to interpret that verse metaphorically.
 
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Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Jesus was not married to Mary Magdeline because Jesus is God and marriage is for humans.

Thus, this statement alone means that what you are describing is not a type of Judaism. According to the Hebrew Torah and Halakha that Hashem gave at Mount Sinai what you described about Jesus is Avodah Zara, and the Israeli/Jewish people were warned by Hashem that concepts, as you described it, are false and Hashem warned Israelis/Jews who hold by Torath Mosheh to stay away from such.

I am sure that the early, later, and modern Christian translations have doctored this quite a bit in their translations, which I have seen first hand in their texts, to fit their theology of Jesus or have used Greek and Hellonist ideas to justify it. If that is what Christians accept it is not the place of us Jews to get in your way, if that is what you want. Yet, again we were warned by Hashem to stay away from such and this, for us, explains why the first Jewish Christians disappeared within 2 generations of their start.

For me, it is also the reason that you and others I have asked cannot not or won't answer the first 3 questions I posed. I.e.
  1. Can you provide the names of about 50 Jews, first name and father's name, who saw him return from somewhere?
  2. Can you provide a non-NT a account of what kind of returning he did? Did him come back from the shuq or the makolet? If so, what did he bring back from there?
  3. At what time of the day did he go to the Sanhedrin to display himself, like the author of the gospels claimed he said he would?
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
How is "the lord laid on him the iniquity of us all" in Isaiah 53:6 not a reference to the Messiah bearing the sins of people?

Because you are reading a Christian English double translation. Let's make things easier. Please see the below and prove that your concept is correct from the oldest version of the text in question.

upload_2020-12-25_7-1-12.png
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Thus, this statement alone means that what you are describing is not a type of Judaism. According to the Hebrew Torah and Halakha that Hashem gave at Mount Sinai what you described about Jesus is Avodah Zara, and the Israeli/Jewish people were warned by Hashem that concepts, as you described it, are false and Hashem warned Israelis/Jews who hold by Torath Mosheh to stay away from such.

I am sure that the early, later, and modern Christian translations have doctored this quite a bit in their translations, which I have seen first hand in their texts, to fit their theology of Jesus or have used Greek and Hellonist ideas to justify it. If that is what Christians accept it is not the place of us Jews to get in your way, if that is what you want. Yet, again we were warned by Hashem to stay away from such and this, for us, explains why the first Jewish Christians disappeared within 2 generations of their start.

For me, it is also the reason that you and others I have asked cannot not or won't answer the first 3 questions I posed. I.e.
  1. Can you provide the names of about 50 Jews, first name and father's name, who saw him return from somewhere?
  2. Can you provide a non-NT a account of what kind of returning he did? Did him come back from the shuq or the makolet? If so, what did he bring back from there?
  3. At what time of the day did he go to the Sanhedrin to display himself, like the author of the gospels claimed he said he would?

The Old Testament never talks about the Messiah being married. How would Jesus not being married make following the teachings Jesus antithetical to Judaism? Because of the historical division between Jewish Christians and gentile divisions they are different faiths but to the Jewish Christians they were one and the same. People follow Judaism but nlt Jesus, some people follow just Jesus, some people mix being Jewish and following Jesus. The Old Covenant doesn't exclude the New Covenant. Even some gentiles follow Jesus and Torah. What evidence is there that Christian interpretations of the prophecies are based off of Greek amd Hellonist beliefs?
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
There's nothing ambiguous about the word iniquity in the Hebrew. Its a formal word for sin.

You don't understand what I am saying. The entire Hebrew text from the beginning of Yeshayahu to the end does not support what you saying. Thus, if what you are saying, even in one word, were true you would be abel to prove it by going through the Hebrew text. That is what I am saying.
 
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Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
The Old Testament never talks about the Messiah being married. How would Jesus not being married make following the teachings Jesus antithetical to Judaism? Because of the historical division between Jewish Christians and gentile divisions they are different faiths but to the Jewish Christians they were one and the same. People follow Judaism but nlt Jesus, some people follow just Jesus, some people mix being Jewish and following Jesus. The Old Covenant doesn't exclude the New Covenant. Even some gentiles follow Jesus and Torah. What evidence is there that Christian interpretations of the prophecies are based off of Greek amd Hellonist beliefs?

The Christian text an "Old Testament" may or may not say a lot of things. The Hebrew Tanakh is not the same as the Christian translation you are quoting and the Hebrew Tanakh text does not mention the Christian concept of a "messiah." In terms of Davidic kings being married and having children that is stated in the Hebrew text of the Tanakh. Would you like me to post the Hebrew text that states it for you?

Christians, by the own admission from the past to the present do not follow Torath Mosheh or Torah based Judaism. That is why they are very clear in the NT to say that they don't.

In terms of proofs that the NT is based on Greek and Hellonist beleifs. That is easy. The NT was originally written in Greek, a language that Torath Mosheh Jews detested. Paul, according ot the NT, grew up in Tarsus and he wrote most of the NT. Paul also quoted in his writings a number of Greek pagan philosphers and his ideas are found heavily in Greek culture. Would like me to quote some of his Hellonist ideas?
 
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