lukethethird
unknown member
Well?
...and while we're at it, what did we do that someone had to die for?
...and while we're at it, what did we do that someone had to die for?
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You misunderstand -- you don't actually have to DO anything to merit somebody dying. You're born with it. You are, to quote Christopher Hitchens, "created sick and ordered to be well."Well?
...and while we're at it, what did we do that someone had to die for?
Well?
What did we do that someone had to die for?
You misunderstand -- you don't actually have to DO anything to merit somebody dying. You're born with it. You are, to quote Christopher Hitchens, "created sick and ordered to be well."
A bit bizarre, in my view, but that's what the religion says.
Let me say this as clearly as I possibly can:What is "the religion" that teaches such nonsense? Certainly NOT Christianity.
The truth is......we were created perfect, but our first father handed us a raw deal. He disobeyed the only negative command that God gave him....and the result was harm to all his children. He knew what the penalty was before he committed the deed.
We have been stuck with the results of what he did, but we had God to get us out of this mess. Christ paid with his life to redeem us (see above) and he teaches us how to stay in God's good graces until its time to go back to God's original purpose for mankind and this Earth.
The issues raised in Eden had to be settled first, and answered by those who did as God instructed them. The Bible is full of accounts where men and women did obey God.....and those who did not. They are there for comparison. We need to learn what Adam failed to do....to obey God and give our complete trust as Jesus did.
Let me say this as clearly as I possibly can:
I AM GUILTY OF NOBODY'S WRONGDOING BUT MY OWN.
If you want to be punished for the crimes of your ancestors, fine, you go for it. And I hope it makes you feel better, though I can't see how.
But any so-called GOD that presumes to hold me accountable for what somebody else did is just as ignorant as most of the others humans I've ever encountered -- which is why I suspect that that is exactly who he is. The figment of imagination of a bunch of ignorant, gullible humans.
Nobody said you were. Just as no child is guilty of any wrongdoing by inheriting a genetic disorder from a parent.
We are not being punished.....we are the victims caught up in tussle between the forces of good and evil. We are the subjects of a rescue mission. Its not our fight, but we can choose sides...in fact we must because, according to the Bible (which you are free to ignore) there is already an established winner in this fight.....so who would choose to be on the side of the loser?
All that did was tell me how clueless you are about our predicament. Shaking your fist at God alters nothing about his plans for the earth and this universe.....including what he had planned for our life here. If you want what God is offering then it requires very little effort on our part to obey the one who requires compliance with his clearly stated laws. If you do not wish to be a part of his plans, then he will not force himself on you....but please understand that he does not need any of us.......we need him to continue living. We have to see that his plans will go ahead, with us or without us....its our choice.
You misunderstand -- you don't actually have to DO anything to merit somebody dying. You're born with it. You are, to quote Christopher Hitchens, "created sick and ordered to be well."
A bit bizarre, in my view, but that's what the religion says.
It isn't what we did individually but, a debt that was passed on by a family member that no one could pay. Do you know about the redemption laws in Israel? Christ is called a redeemer for a reason.
Any debt incurred by a person could be passed on to the next generation until the debt was paid. A son or daughter could work to help pay off the debt, but if it was huge, it was just an ongoing thing unless some benevolent person (perhaps a wealthy relative) volunteered to pay the debt for them.
This type of bond service sometimes lasted for generations where a near kinsman redeemer did not readily provide the ransom price.
The sin of Adam plunged the whole human race into a debt that none of them could not pay. But if a redeemer would pay the set amount, then all of Adam's children would be freed from the debt that led to sin and it consequence, death.
God's law stated "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and a life for a life", (equivalency) so the life that Adam lost on account of his disobedience was not only his own, but the lives of all who would descend from him.
Death through sin was like an inherited genetic disorder that is passed from one generation to the next. (Romans 5:12) The human race needed someone to pay the debt for them, but it was perfect human life that Adam lost, and there was not a perfect human on earth who could redeem mankind. That is why God sent Christ from heaven to become the perfect life offered willingly on our behalf. The debt was paid and mankind gained forgiveness of their sin and would eventually be released from this debt, but not until the whole human race was tested as to fitness for life in the Kingdom of God first.
God's first purpose was to have a race of perfect but obedient, free willed humans to take care of the planet he created for them and all the creatures who would share it. He never abandoned his first purpose and we will see it fulfilled when he brings the inhabitants of this earth to an accounting. Just as life was conditional in Eden, (they had to remain obedient) so it will be in the new world of God's making. (2 Peter 3:13) Obedience is what God commands and that is what he expects.....only obedient ones will enjoy the life that God has in store for the human race, bought with a price that he willingly paid to redeem us. (Isaiah 55:11)
So Christianity was created as a solution to a problem that was created by Judaism. Great, just what we needed, another religion to carry on.
Nobody said you were. Just as no child is guilty of any wrongdoing by inheriting a genetic disorder from a parent.
We are not being punished.....we are the victims caught up in a tussle between the forces of good and evil.
Its not our fight, but we can choose sides...in fact we must because, according to the Bible (which you are free to ignore) there is already an established winner in this fight.....so who would choose to be on the side of the loser?
Well?
...and while we're at it, what did we do that someone had to die for?
Let me reply here, so that it's not solely a Jehova's Witness who explains the very basics of Christian faith here.You are, to quote Christopher Hitchens, "created sick and ordered to be well."
We all die because we all sin and in this way take after our ancestors.
Let me put it this way: we are not responsible for our nature being somehow wrong, but the moment we start to produce evil deeds, it's still our fault, because anyone could go ask Jesus to fix our own nature.
Oh wait! We are all going to heaven. That is great.
at least they learn how to say sorry, in my opinion. The first step when you become a Christian is "sorry God, I was wrong, please forgive!"But it clearly doesn't work. People who ask Jesus to fix their nature don't stop 'sinning'.
at least they learn how to say sorry, in my opinion. The first step when you become a Christian is "sorry God, I was wrong, please forgive!"
no, God isn't monstrous and unjust.Which doesn't change the fact that, according to your story, we have been born with a sinful nature, through no fault of our own, and are being condemned for it by your monstrous and unjust god.
no, God isn't monstrous and unjust.
Let's compare it to the shell oilspill.
At the beginning, Shell argued that since it wasn't them who broke the pipeline, it wasn't their fault and they are not responsible for the oil spill.
Would you agree? Would you also say "Shell would be condemned for a broken pipeline that they didn't break?"
Of course not, I guess. Shell was blamed for the oil spill, rightly so.
Same may apply for the Bible, please.