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Is according to Jews everything God's will?

ayin

Member
When David killed righteous Uriah, was it God's will? When Israel forsook their God, was it God's will? When a person sins, is it God's will? Is everything God's will, or is there also coincidence?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
in a basic sense, nothing can not be according to God's plan and foreknowledge. Attributing the human notion of "will" on to God will lead to misunderstandings.

Do you think God allowed Israel to forsake God because good came out of it?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Do you think God allowed Israel to forsake God because good came out of it?
I think that trying to assign "allowed" gets into all sorts of philosophical headaches. God "allows" people to make their own choices even though he knows what those choices will be.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
The TaNaKh (not “Old Testament”) actually says that some of Israel turned to other gods but that there is always a righteous remnant among them that do not.

Do you think from the Exodus to now only a remnant of Israelites followed God?
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Do you think from the Exodus to now only a remnant of Israelites followed God?
I am sad to say too many did not. You see any Sadducees lately? Or Karaites? They were once gantser k’nackers. But they abandoned HaShem, now they’re gone. Many Jews converted to other faiths. Their descendants have been lost as identified Jews. The Northern Kingdom followed other gods. They are lost and won’t be restored until Shiloh comes.

It isn’t a question of numbers. It is a question of following HaShem. Don’t do that and you’re lost. Do it and you can never be lost. Shalom.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I am sad to say too many did not. You see any Sadducees lately? Or Karaites? They were once gantser k’nackers. But they abandoned HaShem, now they’re gone. Many Jews converted to other faiths. Their descendants have been lost as identified Jews. The Northern Kingdom followed other gods. They are lost and won’t be restored until Shiloh comes.

It isn’t a question of numbers. It is a question of following HaShem. Don’t do that and you’re lost. Do it and you can never be lost. Shalom.

Do you think Jews who mix Jesus with being Jewish converted to other faiths? I think that the difference exists for historical reasons, but in the first century, it was how could you be Gentile and believe in Jesus? The Jewish Christians didn't have a different religion.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Do you think Jews who mix Jesus with being Jewish converted to other faiths? I think that the difference exists for historical reasons, but in the first century, it was how could you be Gentile and believe in Jesus? The Jewish Christians didn't have a different religion.
According to one understanding, initially, what became Christianity was just a sect of Judaism populated by a small group of people who followed a charismatic leader. They were excluded by the mainstream and branched out to people of other religions to build numbers because the mainstream wasn't buying in. There is even a belief that the particular texts and practices/beliefs were established by Jews in the mainstream to create a more visible difference between these believers and the majority who rejected Jesus.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Do you think Jews who mix Jesus with being Jewish converted to other faiths? I think that the difference exists for historical reasons, but in the first century, it was how could you be Gentile and believe in Jesus? The Jewish Christians didn't have a different religion.
Jews who mix Jesus have converted to the Christian religion, even though they remain halakhicially Jewish. They simply aren't practicing Judaism any longer. They may call their religion Messianic Judaism, but it is not a Judaism. It is Christianity, or at best, a syncretism.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Jews who mix Jesus have converted to the Christian religion, even though they remain halakhicially Jewish. They simply aren't practicing Judaism any longer. They may call their religion Messianic Judaism, but it is not a Judaism. It is Christianity, or at best, a syncretism.

The historical separation between the two beliefs doesn't mean that they aren't practicing Judaism.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
According to one understanding, initially, what became Christianity was just a sect of Judaism populated by a small group of people who followed a charismatic leader. They were excluded by the mainstream and branched out to people of other religions to build numbers because the mainstream wasn't buying in. There is even a belief that the particular texts and practices/beliefs were established by Jews in the mainstream to create a more visible difference between these believers and the majority who rejected Jesus.

Psalm 22 isn't a prophecy. It's a prayer of a righteous sufferer who comes to the jaws of death and is miraculously delivered. Yet Jesus said that everything written up to his lifetime finds its full meaning and expression in him. He even applied Psalm 22 to himself on the cross. And in Psalm 22, as a result of the righteous sufferer's deliverance from death, all the ends of the earth will worship God. That's quite a significant deliverance from death. God's intent was not to keep Israel as an isolated nation, but that through Israel the entire world will come to know the one true God. That has always been his heart. We see in the scriptures that this messianic figure will be both priestly and royal-he will deal with sin as well as rule and reign. He will first suffer before he is raised up and exalted; he will both come riding on a donkey meek and lowly, as well as come in clouds of glory. He will first be rejected by his people and will be a light to the nations. He will suffer terribly for our sins as a righteous substitute. The power of his deliverance from death will cause the ends of the earth to worship the one true God. We also see that redemption had to come and there had to be a divine visitation before the second temple was destroyed in AD 70.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The historical separation between the two beliefs doesn't mean that they aren't practicing Judaism.
Oh, of course it does. When the rabbis kicked the heretical Christians out of the synagogues, meaning that it was no longer a sect of Judaism, it went on to form a new and distinct religion. Again, the Jewish sect of Jesus believers no longer exists -- it was a heresy that got kicked out forever.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
The historical separation between the two beliefs doesn't mean that they aren't practicing Judaism.
Of course it does. What do you get when you systemically don't follow the basic principles and tenets of a religion and uphold principles entirely foreign and even heretical to that religion? Answer: A different religion/worldview.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
When David killed righteous Uriah, was it God's will?
Based on 2 Sam. 11:11, Uriah had the status of a rebel who deserved death.

When Israel forsook their God, was it God's will? When a person sins, is it God's will?
Someone once told me, before it happens, it's forbidden, after it happens, it's what G-d wanted.
Is everything God's will, or is there also coincidence?
I was also taught, every drop of milk that makes it into the carton you buy in the store was destined to you from the moment the world was created. Maybe there isn't anything except for G-d's Will.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The TaNaKh (not “Old Testament”) actually says that some of Israel turned to other gods but that there is always a righteous remnant among them that do not.
Nice point. And the expression 'Israel' can be applied in various ways. Just to say, there is the nation with geographical boundaries and there is a group of people as well with variances, such as lineage and affiliation.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
When David killed righteous Uriah, was it God's will? When Israel forsook their God, was it God's will? When a person sins, is it God's will? Is everything God's will, or is there also coincidence?
It would seem that if everything were God's will there would have been no rebellion against Him. Would a father encourage his children to be rebellious and not listen to him when he knows better? Deuteronomy chapter 1 helps to understand this. He instructs. He 'knows' the possibility is there for disobedience, Look at Deuteronomy chapter 1, it really makes clear that while God instructs, He also allows people to choose what they will do. If He knew in advance what they would do, why bother telling them what to do and what the penalties are if they disobey?
 
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