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Did Jesus Christ actually die?

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
You're changing the subject.

You said:

"Some jewish scholars believe that there are two Messiahs. How can the mentioning second advent of the Messiah be cryptic? It's mentioned there but because people don't think it's Jesus they interpret it in different ways."

The point is, you don't know what Jewish Scholars believe about 2 Messiahs. Just like you don't know why Jewish people reject Jesus. You shouldn't talk about other people's beliefs. You should speak for yourself. Jewish people have good reasons for rejecting Jesus; it's not vague interpretation; it's not our prideful nature. You claimed both; you're wrong about both.

That article refers to the Messiah as Yeshua and the son of Joseph. I don't think the prophecies about Jesus being the Messiah are vague. I think the belief of there being two Messiahs is more consistent with the belief of the Messiah being primarily a political figure.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The context of Isaiah 53 is not about Israel walking away from God.
Actually it is:

Isaiah 53 - Wikipedia).

It has been argued[3] that the "servant" represents the nation of Israel, which would bear excessive iniquities, pogroms, blood libels, anti-judaism, antisemitism and continue to suffer without cause (Isaiah 52:4) on behalf of others (Isaiah 53:7,11–12). Early on, the servant of the Lord is promised to prosper and "be very high". The following evaluation of the Servant by the "many nations, kings", and "we" Isaiah 52:15 is quite negative, though, and bridges over to their self-accusation and repentance after verse 4 ("our"). Then, the Servant is vindicated by God, "because he bared his soul unto death". On the other hand, it is argued that the "servant" in this song might be an individual or messianic[4]

Taking the Bible too literally results in failed arguments.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Actually it is:

Isaiah 53 - Wikipedia).

It has been argued[3] that the "servant" represents the nation of Israel, which would bear excessive iniquities, pogroms, blood libels, anti-judaism, antisemitism and continue to suffer without cause (Isaiah 52:4) on behalf of others (Isaiah 53:7,11–12). Early on, the servant of the Lord is promised to prosper and "be very high". The following evaluation of the Servant by the "many nations, kings", and "we" Isaiah 52:15 is quite negative, though, and bridges over to their self-accusation and repentance after verse 4 ("our"). Then, the Servant is vindicated by God, "because he bared his soul unto death". On the other hand, it is argued that the "servant" in this song might be an individual or messianic[4]

Taking the Bible too literally results in failed arguments.

Israel is talked about in the masculine and in songs countries are referred to in the feminine.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Excuses excuses. Now you are claiming that prophecy is not reliable. Most prophecies are interlocked so that if one fails they all fail.

What prophecy did I say was not reliable? The prophecies that were meant to be fulfilled at the second coming of Jesus are interpreted by some people to refer to two Messiahs because Jesus didn't deliver the Jews from the Romans. The prophecies aren't like Nostradamus. Job believed that the Messiah was an advocate and a Redeemer, not a political figure.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What prophecy did I say was not reliable? The prophecies that were meant to be fulfilled at the second coming of Jesus are interpreted by some people to refer to two Messiahs because Jesus didn't deliver the Jews from the Romans. The prophecies aren't like Nostradamus. Job believed that the Messiah was an advocate and a Redeemer, not a political figure.
Moving the goalposts on the prophecies amounts to the same thing.

Do you understand yet how excessively vague prophecies are failed prophecies?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Moving the goalposts on the prophecies amounts to the same thing.

Do you understand yet how excessively vague prophecies are failed prophecies?

What is vague about the prophecies of the second coming of Jesus other than they can be interpreted to refer to two Messiahs?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Are you talking about the verse that sounded like Jesus said that a certain generation would be alive at his second coming?

"Sounded like"? It was what he claimed. If you want the specifics it was:

“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
"Sounded like"? It was what he claimed. If you want the specifics it was:

“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)

In the next verse he was talking about the transfiguration because that happens later in the gospel of Matthew.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
In the next verse he was talking about the transfiguration because that happens later in the gospel of Matthew.
You might want to check. That was the end of that chapter. The next chapter is about the transfiguration, but that was not a fulfillment of that prophecy. Angels did not repay every man according to their deeds, a very important part of the prophecy.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
You might want to check. That was the end of that chapter. The next chapter is about the transfiguration, but that was not a fulfillment of that prophecy. Angels did not repay every man according to their deeds, a very important part of the prophecy.

There are different interpretations of that verse in the New Testament. Some people think Jesus will come and there will be a Millennium kingdom some people think Jesus will come and judge and the world will be over. The parables of Jesus are cryptic but the details of the Messianic prophecies are simple.

The transfiguration and the prophecy about angels repaying every man according to their deeds are two different prophecies.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
There are different interpretations of that verse in the New Testament. Some people think Jesus will come and there will be a Millennium kingdom some people think Jesus will come and judge and the world will be over. The parables of Jesus are cryptic but the details of the Messianic prophecies are simple.

The transfiguration and the prophecy about angels repaying every man according to their deeds are two different prophecies.
Of course there are different interpretations. That is the first step taken to try to save a failed prophecy. Just as they try to defend Ezekiel's failed Tyre prophecy.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Of course there are different interpretations. That is the first step taken to try to save a failed prophecy. Just as they try to defend Ezekiel's failed Tyre prophecy.

Jesus was talking about different topics in that same chapter. That's why I believe that the prophecy at the end was about the transfiguration and the verses in the middle at the second coming were a different topic. At the start of that chapter Jesus was talking about taking up your cross and following him.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Jesus was talking about different topics in that same chapter. That's why I believe that the prophecy at the end was about the transfiguration and the verses in the middle at the second coming were a different topic. At the start of that chapter Jesus was talking about taking up your cross and following him.
Where do you think that he was talking about the transfiguration? The quote that I gave you was the end of that chapter so I am confused on where you are getting this claim from.
 
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