Is Christmas Pagan?

[metis]

Well I just thought that reindeer seem so in tune with the Lapland tradition that is all.

It's part of my Swedish tradition, thus I was just joking around.

BTW, part of what I like about Christmas is that it brings in traditions from various parts of the world since some different symbols are used and also different approaches to the holiday. My Swedish tradition is not exactly the same as my wife's Italian tradition, but we celebrate using both.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

For those few actually interested in the topic (as opposed to being committed to the debate), there is an interesting piece written by C. P. E. Nothaft titled The Origins of the Christmas Date: Some Recent Trends in Historical Research (Church History 81:4; December 2012, 903-911). It again brings to mind H. L. Mencken's observation that:

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.​

 

[Augustus]

For those few actually interested in the topic (as opposed to being committed to the debate), there is an interesting piece written by C. P. E. Nothaft titled The Origins of the Christmas Date: Some Recent Trends in Historical Research (Church History 81:4; December 2012, 903-911). It again brings to mind H. L. Mencken's observation that:

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.​

Also:

S Hijmans - Usener's Christmas: A Contribution to the Modern Construct of Late Antique Solar Syncretism

TC Schmidt Calculating December 25 as the Birth of Jesus in Hippolytus’ Canon and Chronicon

Or for people who can't be bothered to actually read articles, I summarised all 3 last year (along with Northaft's Early Christian Chronology and the Origins of the Christmas Date)

in this thread: Christmas 25 Dec: Scholarly views

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Thanks my friend. I will set out an offering for you and your love ones this Yule to Hertha as we celebrate the love, joy and mystery of this season.

Thank you. That's very kind of you. I will return the favor.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Also:

S Hijmans - Usener's Christmas: A Contribution to the Modern Construct of Late Antique Solar Syncretism

TC Schmidt Calculating December 25 as the Birth of Jesus in Hippolytus’ Canon and Chronicon

Or for people who can't be bothered to actually read articles, I summarised all 3 last year (along with Northaft's Early Christian Chronology and the Origins of the Christmas Date)

in this thread: Christmas 25 Dec: Scholarly views

I found the references to Hijmans in Northaft's 2012 article noteworthy. Thank you for the other references.

 

[1213]

...Judahite religion over decades by Jewish scribes who wanted their own version of the concepts...

I think that is baseless claim.

...The sacrifice concepts are variations on older concepts where a virgin or a demigod was consumed to gain their vitality or powers.
In Catholicism they have an old school belief that the bread and wine actually changes to body and blood:....

And I think those ideas are not what Jesus taught.

 

[rational experiences]

Symbols are what humans use, and even in sarcastic or even self joking conditions make fun of self and self harm. As a human condition.

The theme, Santa...Satan will give you a block of coal (*combustion) for christmas instead of receiving the GIFT of life...which was the promise of honouring the Jesus preaching, End of Year ice return contradicting a very hot summer.

Where the amassing of ice, keeps Earth balances sea of the son.

That type of correct human teaching/reasoning. ICE and the newly born GIFT of life is for a stable heavenly spirit to be reborn every end of year for bio life/human babies and animal babies.

The teaching.

Time was set on what science knew. MASS of God O a planet when it combusts from the heart core irradiation and sink holes appear, Earth becomes smaller, so its travel around the Sun changed.

So arrived to a conclusive review about the timed evaluation of the mass in space in travel O. Which relates traditionally to life continuance, rebirth, food abundance itself. To celebrate life in the knowledge of life and to love the body of the Christ.

Christ as a science teaching was a CH spirit gas evaluation that quoted it belonged with the Immaculate presence of an Immaculate heavenly body that was self conceived in a state of magical scientific description. A mystery to science, as space changed the gas/spirit that was released into its womb as a scientific relative teaching.

Science, either you are a scientist who is spiritual who loves intelligent advice yet loves his family versus a scientist who would have us all destroyed, is a scientist who warns everyone. Who Jesus really was, that sort of scientist.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That's a rather vague prophecy. The prophecy where all nations will bow down to Israel was less vague. Didn't happen.
The dying/rising demigods who get members into the afterlife is also pagan.
Why does every generation of Christians, each decade of every single century,have those who think some sort of big event is happening soon? Yet they have all been wrong. And each new person thinks they are the ones who will see it while thousands of past Christians were wrong? Such arrogance?

Wrong guesses or wrong calculations does Not make the Bible as wrong, but makes the wrong guesses or calculations as wrong.
Since Pentecost the Israel of God is Not fleshly national Israel but 'spiritual Israel' Not found located on any map because the 'Spiritual Israel' of God is the Christian congregation wherever found on Earth. - 1 Peter 2:9,5
Afterlife is Not biblical. Resurrection is biblical.
Afterlife means: being more alive after death than before death.
Resurrection is future ( Acts of the Apostles 24:15 ) future during Jesus' 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth.
Those resurrected back to physical life on Earth are still sleeping in their graves -> John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5

Arrogance or simply lacking in accurate knowledge, lacking in seeing the whole picture.
Never before in history has the good news of God's Kingdom (Daniel2:44) been proclaimed on such a grand-international scale as it is today.
This coupled with the selfish-distorted form of love the world now displays as described at 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13 shows that Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 is nearing its ' final phase ' and this means we are nearing the ' final signal', so to speak, when the powers that be will be saying, " Peace and Security...." (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3) but this 'peace' will be the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Rev. 7:14,9.
To me then it is also Not vague that things will be looking 'rosy' before the out break of the great tribulation.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Rome and other pagans had mid winter celebrations long, long before Jesus was even born so how they took christian concepts before christianity existed seems impossible to me

Right. Rome and other pagans had their pre-Christian celebrations. Fake 'weed/tares' Christians put Christian names or labels on those pre-Christian festivals.

 

[Bear Wild]

It's part of my Swedish tradition, thus I was just joking around.

BTW, part of what I like about Christmas is that it brings in traditions from various parts of the world since some different symbols are used and also different approaches to the holiday. My Swedish tradition is not exactly the same as my wife's Italian tradition, but we celebrate using both.

Well said. I have always believed there is a wonderful message and symbolism of the Christmas celebrations that allows all of us to celebrate. Love, kindness, peace, the mystery and magic that still exists in the world. It always seems like the best time of the year to forget the differences and rejoice in life whether pagan, Christian, atheist and any other religion willing to celebrate this special time. So I wish you and your wife a merry merry Christmas and a happy yule.

 

[Bear Wild]

December 25 was chosen for one reason and one reason only: it was because March 25 was already chosen for the Feast of the Annunciation (Jesus conception). December 25 is simply 9 months later.

I disagree that was propaganda so well known. Solstice is possibly the oldest time of celebration at least in the Northern hemisphere with deep routes in ritual and celebration. What you presented was a imagined creation based on tying in important celebrated dates with nothing more than a desire to create the perfect with no reality. We know from the history Roman expansion was to incorporate holidays and rituals into Christian. I am surprised that you bought into this made up date and you must be aware how important the days of the solstice in celebration was to the people of Europe and even northern Africa. By creating the myth you have repeated the church consolidated power over there importance of this time. Unless you have evidence that the birth of Jesus was known and celebrated during the first century of the formation of Christianity.

 

[Augustus]

I disagree that was propaganda so well known. Solstice is possibly the oldest time of celebration at least in the Northern hemisphere with deep routes in ritual and celebration. What you presented was a imagined creation based on tying in important celebrated dates with nothing more than a desire to create the perfect with no reality. We know from the history Roman expansion was to incorporate holidays and rituals into Christian. I am surprised that you bought into this made up date and you must be aware how important the days of the solstice in celebration was to the people of Europe and even northern Africa. By creating the myth you have repeated the church consolidated power over there importance of this time. Unless you have evidence that the birth of Jesus was known and celebrated during the first century of the formation of Christianity.

Firstly, the calculation thesis wasn't 'Church propaganda', it is based on modern secular academic scholarship. Whether you agree with it or not, dismissing it out of hand as Church propaganda is fallacious.

On the other hand, the "Christmas is super very very pagan" narrative is largely based on religious propaganda of the anti-Catholic variety. This doesn't make it automatically wrong, but it is worth noting Westerners often assume it is 'obviously' pagan because of the Protestant heritage of hostility towards 'popery' that has informed numerous aspects of popular historical knowledge.

You are also still excessively focused on Northern Europe which had nothing to do with early Christianity, and seem to simply assume that it must have been stolen without actually considering what was happening in the 3rd and early 4th C before the Christianisation of the empire.

Also that the dating of Christmas may significantly predate the desire to celebrate Christmas. Easter was the big celebration, and still is in the Eastern Church.

If you would like an overview of peer-reviewed scholarship on the issue: Christmas 25 Dec: Scholarly views

 

[ChristineM]

Right. Rome and other pagans had their pre-Christian celebrations. Fake 'weed/tares' Christians put Christian names or labels on those pre-Christian festivals.

So its correct, Christmas derived from pagan festivals, thanks for being so honest.

Also note, the changing names of an original practice makes the copied practice the fake.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Since Pentecost the Israel of God is Not fleshly national Israel but 'spiritual Israel'

Oh barf.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I disagree that was propaganda so well known. Solstice is possibly the oldest time of celebration at least in the Northern hemisphere with deep routes in ritual and celebration. What you presented was a imagined creation based on tying in important celebrated dates with nothing more than a desire to create the perfect with no reality. We know from the history Roman expansion was to incorporate holidays and rituals into Christian. I am surprised that you bought into this made up date and you must be aware how important the days of the solstice in celebration was to the people of Europe and even northern Africa. By creating the myth you have repeated the church consolidated power over there importance of this time. Unless you have evidence that the birth of Jesus was known and celebrated during the first century of the formation of Christianity.

How was it propaganda? You already had a set holy day for his conception. Give nine months for his pregnancy, and make that day the holy day for his nativity. It's simply math.

 

[ChristineM]

How was it propaganda? You already had a set holy day for his conception. Give nine months for his pregnancy, and make that day the holy day for his nativity. It's simply math.

Yes, Easter too was a pagan festival of spring dedicated to the goddess Eostra...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What you presented was a imagined creation based on tying in important celebrated dates with nothing more than a desire to create the perfect with no reality.

Shocking! Therefore?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes, Easter too was a pagan festival of spring dedicated to the goddess Eostra...

How did Easter enter the conversation???? I've only mentioned two holy days: The feast of the annunciation, and christmas. You do understand that the feast of the annunciation has nothing to do with easter, right?

 

[Bear Wild]

How was it propaganda? You already had a set holy day for his conception. Give nine months for his pregnancy, and make that day the holy day for his nativity. It's simply math.

And why was March chosen as the holy day for his conception? Did Mary record this date and preserve the knowledge when she became pregnant only to be later discovered by those wanting to create a birthday for Jesus?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And why was March chosen as the holy day for his conception? Did Mary record this date and preserve the knowledge when she became pregnant only to be later discovered by those wanting to create a birthday for Jesus?

Not really sure why March 25 was chosen for the Feast of the Assumption. All I know is that this date was chosen for that Feast Day long before people began to celebrate Christmas.

Wikipedia says:

From the earliest recorded history, the feast[of the annunciation] has been celebrated on March 25, commemorating both the belief that the spring equinox was not only the day of God's act of Creation but also the beginning of Christ's redemption of that same Creation. All Christian antiquity held 25 March as the actual day of Jesus' death.​