While I am a big fan of the Christian community, it nourishes me every day...
not everthing is as good as it should be, I think.
These days I see it as a fashion among Christians to bash homosexuals and call them "perverts" and "wicked". At least some do and the rest sometimes stays silent when it happens.
Normally Bible says "judge not" - so why do some Christians think it is ok to speak about gays and lesbians in such a disparaging manner?
Judging and condemning happened in the Bible. Paul judged Alexander, for instance. But before, he was getting attacked by Alexander. Homosexuals don't usually attack Christians even if some of them call the former "peril of the youth" - without providing the slightest substanciation for this weird claim of course. By substanciation I mean a Bible verse or a scientific study...
Paul even goes on to teach that people living in sexual sin should even be removed from the churches.*
But never Bible calls for the insulting of other minorities.
Pointing this out within the Christian communities sometimes gets tricky, too.
They say you were "the accuser of the brethren" or interrupted the peace inside of the community.
I sometimes even heard I was purportedly judging the ones who judge homosexuals.
Merely pointing out disparaging remarks judges noone, though. Criticising a statement does not mean criticising the person.
Thomas
Disclaimer: I am neutral towards whether the Bible considers homosexuality or its practice sinful.
While I am a big fan of the Christian community, it nourishes me every day...
not everthing is as good as it should be, I think.
These days I see it as a fashion among Christians to bash homosexuals and call them "perverts" and "wicked". At least some do and the rest sometimes stays silent when it happens.
Normally Bible says "judge not" - so why do some Christians think it is ok to speak about gays and lesbians in such a disparaging manner?
Judging and condemning happened in the Bible. Paul judged Alexander, for instance. But before, he was getting attacked by Alexander. Homosexuals don't usually attack Christians even if some of them call the former "peril of the youth" - without providing the slightest substanciation for this wierd claim of course. By substanciation I mean a Bible verse or a scientific study...
Paul even goes on to teach that people living in sexual sin should even be removed from the churches.*
But never Bible calls for the insulting of other minorities.
Pointing this out within the Christian communities sometimes gets tricky, too.
They say you was "the accuser of the brethren" or interrupted the peace inside of the community.
I sometimes even heard I was purportedly judging the ones who judge homosexuals.
Merely pointing out disparaging remarks judges noone, though. Criticising a statement does not mean criticising the person.
Thomas
Disclaimer: I am neutral towards whether the Bible considers homosexuality or its practice sinful.
I think the assumption here is that many Christians are Christian because their belief is rooted in the Bible. From what I can gather, most Christians are Christians because of the tribe they belong to, which is why they often reflect attitudes of the tribe despite being shown the Bible's view on matters. Honestly, they care more about their tribes views and whether they are seen as Christian by of their tribe rather than genuinely caring about Jesus message at all IMO. They instinctively want to please men rather than "God".
I am not homosexual (mostly) so didn't answer the poll. I do however have several homosexual friends and would like to add a comment.
James is Irish Catholic, not tall or well built, kind of timid and very effeminate, the quintessential gay hairdresser who rides a Harley. He left Ireland, because he didn't feel safe there, he had been attacked and beaten a few times so moved over to the UK, Blackpool in fact, which is a gay friendly and has the third largest gay community per capita in the UK. A mecca for gays seeking safety
Although there is some "gay bashing" in and around the UK James feels much more secure where he is and can be himself.
While I am a big fan of the Christian community, it nourishes me every day...
not everthing is as good as it should be, I think.
These days I see it as a fashion among Christians to bash homosexuals and call them "perverts" and "wicked". At least some do and the rest sometimes stays silent when it happens.
Normally Bible says "judge not" - so why do some Christians think it is ok to speak about gays and lesbians in such a disparaging manner?
Judging and condemning happened in the Bible. Paul judged Alexander, for instance. But before, he was getting attacked by Alexander. Homosexuals don't usually attack Christians even if some of them call the former "peril of the youth" - without providing the slightest substanciation for this weird claim of course. By substanciation I mean a Bible verse or a scientific study...
Paul even goes on to teach that people living in sexual sin should even be removed from the churches.*
But never Bible calls for the insulting of other minorities.
Pointing this out within the Christian communities sometimes gets tricky, too.
They say you were "the accuser of the brethren" or interrupted the peace inside of the community.
I sometimes even heard I was purportedly judging the ones who judge homosexuals.
Merely pointing out disparaging remarks judges noone, though. Criticising a statement does not mean criticising the person.
Thomas
Disclaimer: I am neutral towards whether the Bible considers homosexuality or its practice sinful.
I'm not personally put down by christians anymore; but, I do have biases about the expression of their belief system-the definition of their words, how they use them, and how its applied-whether it be to the gay person directly or to themselves. If you love someone that's homosexual, you would know what homosexual means and how that other person defines the word for themselves. If you do not personally agree to how they see themselves, that's not love, that's tolerance.
Judgement does not need to be external. You can have personal judgement and bias against others based on your own definition of how you feel people do see themselves in light of your biases. Homosexual people, we, can see through that.
The christian who says they love homosexuals, but not "their" actions is not fine. It denotes homosexuals are homosexual because they have same-sex sex. (As though it where "their" lifestyle). It's stereotypical and highly discriminative-regardless if they are nice to the homosexual or not. Judgement shows in your character not just your actions and speech.
If christians said they love homosexuals but they do not choose what "they" do, it's still not fine. It's still defining them as people who have some sort of uncontrolled lust for same sex people to have SSS rather than how homosexuals see themselves as people.
If they said, I love homosexuals for who they say they are-period (to homosexuals and to themselves), I like that. There is no application of SSS in this statement and there is no judgement on being homosexual means lusting for people they are attracted to.
I don't get it at all anymore. Most christians I meet don't know I'm gay. My co-worker does and said later on that I may go to hell (and excused this with saying -well- you know my belief). If she said I think people who commit SSS will go to hell-gay, straight, bi, so have you-then that's fine as her opinion and belief. But that's not the case, she singled me out to that sinful action (that I do not believe is sinful) and that is what's considered judging. Not the opinion on SSS-that's not homosexuality (even allies get this off too); that's fine. They judge the people based on their definition-not the actual definition and not how homosexuals see themselves.
They don't need to do this to others to be considered judgmental. In your heart you judge others even if you do not express it to others. I can never support a belief like that.
That's my take on this. Any christian can say they don't support bashing. That's fine. That doesn't change what they think of homosexuals-not only to them but to themselves as well. It affects what they say, how, and their biases. If one's belief shapes you to judge other people (and judgement can be part of one's character whether he does it out loud or not), then it is not love. It's tolerance.
Bashing people of any lifestyle is simply wrong as it would be wrong to bash a person of a different melanin content, someone who lives together or someone who always lets his/her eyes stray, or bashing a straight person because he/she doesn't agree with the life-style by calling them homophobic just because they don't agree. etc etc etc.
But it happens. People are still people whether they are Christians or not- However true that Christians should know better.
Christians can be a Christian when they have given their lives but 1 month ago and still have a bunch of issues that haven't been cleaned out. Then again, they could be 20 years old in the faith but still wear diapers and poop whenever they open their mouths. A shame... but true.
All I can do for all the ones who have suffered homophobic remarks, I am so sorry that you have suffered.
I'm not personally put down by christians anymore; but, I do have biases about the expression of their belief system-the definition of their words, how they use them, and how its applied-whether it be to the gay person directly or to themselves. If you love someone that's homosexual, you would know what homosexual means and how that other person defines the word for themselves. If you do not personally agree to how they see themselves, that's not love, that's tolerance.
That's my take on this. Any christian can say they don't support bashing. That's fine. That doesn't change what they think of homosexuals-not only to them but to themselves as well. It affects what they say, how, and their biases. If one's belief shapes you to judge other people (and judgement can be part of one's character whether he does it out loud or not), then it is not love. It's tolerance.
I understand your post as saying that - even if people don't happen to call other people names... they can still hurt. If they do so, I wouldn't say they are of a bad character, ... but they still hurt.
If there is judgement going on inside their soul, the judged person might get the hint by anything that happens to them, even if they aren't flat out called names.
I get your point.
Discrimination can adopt many forms. I agree.
After church, people are sometimes asked to eat out at a restaurant. (For me it's too expansive anyway.) But if they know someone is gay/lesbian... and they don't ask them because of their sexual orientation... this is discrimination, too, if it happens. This can hurt just as much as an insult. Even more perhaps. I would call it mobbing.
So, when somebody happens to look down on others because of their sexual orientation or because of a same sex partner, then there certainly are many traps that could be stepped into revealing their thoughts, as I see it.
But the key point is... once you observe discrimination happening in your church.... can you make it a topic or would they silence you the moment you barely touched the matter.
If discussion is still possible, the church is still open to thought. If it isn't, it gets difficult, in my opinion.
A bit complicated given I'm trans (MtF), and although I don't consider myself gay (I'm not into women) I have got to hear from Christians all about how everything related to my sexuality and gender is wrong. How I dress is wrong. How I am is wrong. Amd that extended to much of my life when I still lived in Indiana. I never knew religious persecution until after I ledt Christianity, and it was Christians I thought were my friends who turned on my the quickest (they were the only ones who did).
They kept telling me to leave (Indiana), I did, and getting away from such a Christian stronghold is easily one of the greatest things I have ever done for myself. Now I'm in a place of many cultural Christians who don't practice their religion much or adhere to it much, where those who are more serious about it are fewer in number, and things have been great.
I'm sorry to hear that.
When it comes to LGBT+, the "judge not" advice given in Matthew simply does not reach many brothers and sisters, any more.
They often say "I'm discerning"... arguing that "discernment" is a matter of maturity.
As if Jesus ever said "listen guys, judge not, unless it's discernment!" He never said so, however many Christians still seem to think that making it clear that someone is purportedly just wrong as a person is simply pointing out the "truth", according to them.
If "discernment" could overturn the commandment not to judge, there is no point for Jesus in establishing the rule not to judge to begin with. Any judgement could be called "discernment". Yet the "judge not" verse still is a part of the Bible. Many Christians just don't see that, speaking from my experience (elsewhere in the world - not here on RF).
So your old friends didn't keep Bible standards, as I see it.
I understand your post as saying that - even if people don't happen to call other people names... they can still hurt. If they do so, I wouldn't say they are of a bad character, ... but they still hurt.
If there is judgement going on inside their soul, the judged person might get the hint by anything that happens to them, even if they aren't flat out called names.
It's more that their biases and harsh beliefs show in their character and how they act around people in congruent with their belief systems. For example, a teenager may have a mother who loves their gay child but act in a manner to single that child out because he or she is gay. Another example is if the parent tells the gay child "I respect who you love and bring home" and then their character treats them as different than an everyday male/female couple, that hurts. Sometimes invisible actions hurt more than just saying "I disagree."
Most justify their judgement as from god and (in my opinion) assume that because they don't say something mean to the gay person, they are fine. It's hard not to get offended over another person's beliefs and character but I know some people won't be friends with another knowing their belief system confirms their dislike for homosexuality (redefined).
I get your point. Discrimination can adopt many forms. I agree.
After church, people are sometimes asked to eat out at a restaurant. (For me it's too expansive anyway.) But if they know someone is gay/lesbian... and they don't ask them because of their sexual orientation... this is discrimination, too, if it happens. This can hurt just as much as an insult. Even more perhaps. I would call it mobbing.
So, when somebody happens to look down on others because of their sexual orientation or because of a same sex partner, then there certainly are many traps that could be stepped into revealing their thoughts, as I see it.
The problem is they are branding someone with a label that doesn't reflect the person with whom they are labeling. If someone says "I'm homosexual" the christian (and allies some) think "he has same-sex sex." Even people on RF, a few, don't understand sexual orientation. So, it's a give and take. Education is only helpful to those who wish to receive it. If the word is in scripture, they go by the word not the context in which it is written.
But the key point is... once you observe discrimination happening in your church.... can you make it a topic or would they silence you the moment you barely touched the matter.
If discussion is still possible, the church is still open to thought. If it isn't, it gets difficult, in my opinion.
Some churches do silence people. I knew someone who was kicked out of her church because she is gay. The Catholic Church won't let you take a vow to priesthood if you identity as homosexual.
While I am a big fan of the Christian community, it nourishes me every day...
not everthing is as good as it should be, I think.
These days I see it as a fashion among Christians to bash homosexuals and call them "perverts" and "wicked". At least some do and the rest sometimes stays silent when it happens.
Normally Bible says "judge not" - so why do some Christians think it is ok to speak about gays and lesbians in such a disparaging manner?
Judging and condemning happened in the Bible. Paul judged Alexander, for instance. But before, he was getting attacked by Alexander. Homosexuals don't usually attack Christians even if some of them call the former "peril of the youth" - without providing the slightest substanciation for this weird claim of course. By substanciation I mean a Bible verse or a scientific study...
Paul even goes on to teach that people living in sexual sin should even be removed from the churches.*
But never Bible calls for the insulting of other minorities.
Pointing this out within the Christian communities sometimes gets tricky, too.
They say you were "the accuser of the brethren" or interrupted the peace inside of the community.
I sometimes even heard I was purportedly judging the ones who judge homosexuals.
Merely pointing out disparaging remarks judges noone, though. Criticising a statement does not mean criticising the person.
Thomas
Disclaimer: I am neutral towards whether the Bible considers homosexuality or its practice sinful.
I don't really know what is being considered gay bashing, so perhaps you can help me see what perspective you are coming from.
Perhaps it might make it easier for me, by using a child abuser. Is it considered bashing to call a child abuser a pervert, and wicked? Do you mean calling them that to their face, or voicing it to others. For example, telling someone, "Child abuse is really a wicked act, and child abusers are really perverted."
Is that what you mean by bashing, so that saying the same about homosexuality, is gay bashing?
I'm not personally put down by christians anymore; but, I do have biases about the expression of their belief system-the definition of their words, how they use them, and how its applied-whether it be to the gay person directly or to themselves. If you love someone that's homosexual, you would know what homosexual means and how that other person defines the word for themselves. If you do not personally agree to how they see themselves, that's not love, that's tolerance.
That's my take on this. Any christian can say they don't support bashing. That's fine. That doesn't change what they think of homosexuals-not only to them but to themselves as well. It affects what they say, how, and their biases. If one's belief shapes you to judge other people (and judgement can be part of one's character whether he does it out loud or not), then it is not love. It's tolerance.
Just to be clear, so that i know for sure I understand you, and that Thomas does as well.
You are saying that the beliefs of Christians, that homosexuality is wrong is a judgment in itself, which is the Christian's view, regardless if he says it or not. He is just tolerating the person's choice, but he has already judged their lifestyle by his belief.
Did I understand you correctly?
Just to be clear, so that i know for sure I understand you, and that Thomas does as well.
You are saying that the beliefs of Christians, that homosexuality is wrong is a judgment in itself, which is the Christian's view, regardless if he says it or not. He is just tolerating the person's choice, but he has already judged their lifestyle by his belief.
Did I understand you correctly?
No. I'ma break it down in numbered but its not meant to be defensive or anything just for clarification.
1. Homosexuality means sexual orientation. It refers to the sex a person is attracted to, nothing more.
2. Since sexual orientation (or the sex to whom a person's attraction is oriented) is only an attraction (physiological, psychological, spiritual, and so forth) is not an action (sex) nor a lust, it is not a sin.
3. Unfortunately, christians (the vast majority of them) see homosexuality in the bible as an action and determine those who say they are homosexual are a. people who have same-sex sex or b. those who lust for it (above)
4. It's wrong, of course, for a christian to be mean to a homosexual and judge him for who he is as a person. It is also wrong to judge that homosexual to determine who he is in relationship with same sex sex. So, that in itself is judgement.
5. It's alright to have opinions about same-sex sex, but not alright to stereotype homosexuals who christians "think" because they call themselves so, that's what they do.
The answer to your question,
You are saying that the beliefs of Christians, that homosexuality is wrong is a judgment in itself, which is the Christian's view, regardless if he says it or not. He is just tolerating the person's choice, but he has already judged their lifestyle by his belief. Did I understand you correctly?
It is wrong in that christians apply their definition of homosexuality (SSS) onto homosexuals not their opinions about same-sex sex (which isn't homosexuality).
The problem is that some christians relay this stereotype in their character (how they raise a child, for example), their behavior (beating up a person or kicking a person out of their church), or speech (saying homosexuals are SSS sinners). These are not acts of love but of judgement.
So, yes, their belief does harm homosexuals insofar that it is expressed through their character, behavior, and speech. It would be nice for a christian homosexual to be welcomed in their church as a christian and treated as such "while" the members knowing that they are homosexual. As Thomas said, sometimes that's not the case. Christians look down at homosexuals once they realize their peer is homosexuals-and this is seen through their character not just or only their speech and behavior.
I don't really know what is being considered gay bashing, so perhaps you can help me see what perspective you are coming from.
Perhaps it might make it easier for me, by using a child abuser. Is it considered bashing to call a child abuser a pervert, and wicked? Do you mean calling them that to their face, or voicing it to others. For example, telling someone, "Child abuse is really a wicked act, and child abusers are really perverted."
Is that what you mean by bashing, so that saying the same about homosexuality, is gay bashing?
I don't really know what is being considered gay bashing, so perhaps you can help me see what perspective you are coming from.
Perhaps it might make it easier for me, by using a child abuser. Is it considered bashing to call a child abuser a pervert, and wicked? Do you mean calling them that to their face, or voicing it to others. For example, telling someone, "Child abuse is really a wicked act, and child abusers are really perverted."
Is that what you mean by bashing, so that saying the same about homosexuality, is gay bashing?
Sorry. Interjecting. Gay bashing refers to how people put down gay people for being gay (for being, to the basher, someone who has same-sex sex). It can be in the form of verbal abuse. It can manifest itself in physical abuse. It could be as simple as "You are a sinner 'because' you are gay."
I wouldn't say bashing is akin to physical abuse if saying the former is insults and belittlement. Though people do bash others by hitting on them so they could compare. As for sexual orientation or age of the person being abuse, I see no difference. Bashing and abuse is just what it is. The comparison is harsh but yes, I'd see them the same. Years ago, I think they'd be in the same boat, actually. But people put more emphasis on child abuse-probably because many gay people they are thinking of are adults (but do not think how gay bashing affects children as well).
I don't think that's what he's actually doing. I could be wrong. But trying to morally equivocate homosexuality and child assault is a common occurrence, or I wouldn't have mentioned it.
If that's not what he meant than gay people = child molesters still stands as a good example of what gay bashing looks like.
The poll offers "yes" and "no" while noting: "Multiple votes are allowed. Your vote will be publicly visible." I'd be curious to hear from those who took advantage of this leniency.
The problem is they are branding someone with a label that doesn't reflect the person with whom they are labeling. If someone says "I'm homosexual" the christian (and allies some) think "he has same-sex sex." Even people on RF, a few, don't understand sexual orientation. So, it's a give and take. Education is only helpful to those who wish to receive it. If the word is in scripture, they go by the word not the context in which it is written.
Speaking for myself, I did not know homosexual meant anything other than what I understood it to mean three decades ago. So I think it's important to take into consideration that not everyone keeps up with the changing meaning of words, and be prepared to explain yourself.
For example, if you spoke to persons in the first century, and said something like, "I will beat your a__." They would thing you said you were going to beat their donkey.
So if the meaning of words are changing faster than we can keep up, we need to be considerate of persons perspective, and not just our own.
You said:
Some churches do silence people. I knew someone who was kicked out of her church because she is gay. The Catholic Church won't let you take a vow to priesthood if you identity as homosexual.
You think that's sad. The other person thinks it's sad that people think that it's okay to "do whatever I want ...and be accepted wherever I want"
Two cases of sad. Is one sad correct, and the other sad, incorrect? Which sad should we accept?
Or do we just have to live with our sad... until we die, or until we are judged in that day... according to what the Bible says.
I remember, when I was "in the world", I had a little bit of a rebellious streak - not too too much , so sometimes, I would insist on my way.
However, could I walk into a government office, with a big sign outside, that reads...
...and tell those inside, "No one tells me how to dress. This is my life. I dress how I want."
No. I certainly would not think twice about it... unless I was on top of being rebellious... mad.
Some really rebellious may want to change the sign, but they would do it at night, and hope the cops don't find them out.
We may indeed have our likes, dislikes, desires, wishes, lifestyles... but to want these to be accepted by everyone...
What about the likes, dislikes, desires, wishes, lifestyles, of the other persons?
I think all of us judge others, based on what we believe.
It's an important part of living, and is not by any means contradictory to what Jesus said at Matthew 7.
We need to understand the context correctly. Otherwise those words become a means by which we adulterate God's word.
To give an example...
(Matthew 23:1-13) 1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying: 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but they do not practice what they say. 4 They bind up heavy loads and put them on the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger. 5 All the works they do, they do to be seen by men, for they broaden the scripture-containing cases that they wear as safeguards and lengthen the fringes of their garments. 6 They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues 7 and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men. 8 But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ. 11 But the greatest one among you must be your minister. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. 13 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.
Jesus called these ones more hypocrites and blind guides, throughout the entire chapter.
Was he not judging them, and was he not asking his disciples to do the same, in order that they do not follow their example? Yes.
What about the scriptures that directly tells us avoid the company of wrong-doers, and guard our associations?
in fact, the scriptures say...
(1 Corinthians 15:33) Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits.
(Psalm 26:4, 5) 4 I do not associate with deceitful men, And I avoid those who hide what they are. 5 I hate the company of evil men, And I refuse to associate with the wicked.
(Proverbs 24:21) . . .do not associate with dissenters. . .
(Proverbs 20:19) ...Do not associate with one who loves to gossip.
How can one avoid associating with the deceitful, the wicked, the dissenter, the gossiper, if they do not judge them to be such?
The Bible is very clear.
(Proverbs 13:20) The one walking with the wise will become wise, But the one who has dealings with the stupid will fare badly.
These are the principles, and values that a Christian - that is, a real Christian - lives by.
They do not water down God's word, in an effort to hold hands with people who don't want to live by those standards, or they don't try to curry favor with those who outright reject those standard, or even detest them.
Either they stick to the word, or they let it go, in order to be friends of the world.
The Christian can't have it both ways @thomas t .
(James 4:4, 5) 4 Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that for no reason the scripture says: “The spirit that has taken up residence within us keeps enviously longing”?
Artist. If one does not like the tenets, rules, laws, standards, of a system, they have the choice to stay away from it.
That;s why certain people are not in politics.
