The Unitarian Problem

[Redemptionsong]

As this thread is about the Unitarian view. they and I would not agree with your interpretation, as Jesus is not God. God and Jesus are separate beings.

Even very many creedal Christian Churches would agree that the Holy spirit comes from God alone.
the Filioque introduction. is what split the Eastern and Western churches and still does.
It was an addition to the creed of Nicene that was unauthorised. It is with out biblical authority.

The Anglican church like others has made the decision, and is in the process of removing the Filioque from the Liturgy, and returning to the original Nicene Creed, in line with the continuing Orthodox belief.

The Original collection of books into what we understand as the Bible, was also made at Nicene and was authorise by a slim minority of votes, those against and abstainers actually were a majority.
To day the various Christian churches have from 66 to 81 authorised books in their Canon.
There is no such thing as a single universal Bible.
Your Church might share a Different Bible than many other Churches. and may interpret it differently

There are only 66 books that receive the full acceptance of the Church. The Apocrypha has never been given equal status to the other books. There is a Received Hebrew (Masoretic) text and a Received Greek text. We have both these 'complete' texts underlying the translation of the Authorized Version of the Bible.

The way to determine canonicity is by looking at the words and message contained in the writings, to see whether they stand up to the rigorous tests of consistency and coherence. The Bible is a beautifully constructed and designed message. It has withstood the test of time, in terms of analysis, and from its words millions of people have found Christ.

Ultimately, the written word of God should lead us to the living Word of God!

 

[Redemptionsong]

The problem with that statement. is not every one interprets and understand that passage the same way.
it is after all not literal in meaning. it has a meaning more of being changed by the word and spirit of God.
the concept of becoming permanently sinless or "Saved" is a travesty.

People can be intellectually stubborn, but I can assure you that the Holy Spirit, once received, has a powerful impact on both heart and mind!

Consider the words of Paul to the Corinthians. Corinthians 12:12-14.
'For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
For the body is not one member, but many.'

Salvation is a process that begins the day we are born again. It is not complete until the day of resurrection. Only then will we know that we have finished the race.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

People can be intellectually stubborn, but I can assure you that the Holy Spirit, once received, has a powerful impact on both heart and mind!

Consider the words of Paul to the Corinthians. Corinthians 12:12-14.
'For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
For the body is not one member, but many.'

Salvation is a process that begins the day we are born again. It is not complete until the day of resurrection. Only then will we know that we have finished the race.

What defines "being Born Again?

What do you consider the "End point" of salvation?
what does it actually result in?

Salvation theology "soteriology" is much discussed, with little agreement at all, about anything.
Some clergy reject it all together.

 

[Redemptionsong]

What defines "being Born Again?

What do you consider the "End point" of salvation?
what does it actually result in?

Salvation theology "soteriology" is much discussed, with little agreement at all, about anything.
Some clergy reject it all together.

It's a pertinent question, and one that I am presently discussing with Deeje on another thread.

As I understand, to be born of flesh happens once, and we die. To be born of the Spirit of God happens as the result of faith in Christ, and provides eternal life.

John 3:5. 'Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water [at birth] and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'

I see the end point of salvation as being eternal life in the kingdom of God. Christ being the king.

 

[1213]

...

Can you be a Unitarian and a Christian?

That is and interesting question. Jesus said he does what God has commanded him to do and can’t do anything without God. So, if Jesus does something, it is actually God doing it and the God is actually the savior, Jesus is only the mediator.

For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."
John 12:49-50

I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous; because I don't seek my own will, but the will of my Father who sent me.
John 5:30

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

This means, if we believe what Jesus tells, when Jesus was born, God was also born to this world, because He was in Jesus. God acted through Jesus. And God is the true savior, but he works through Jesus.

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works. …
John 14:10

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, "Forty-six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he spoke of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21

Jesus is the temple of God. That is why, if you receive him, you receive also God.

Most assuredly I tell you, he who receives whomever I send, receives me; and he who receives me, receives him who sent me."
John 13:20

 

[Redemptionsong]

That is and interesting question. Jesus said he does what God has commanded him to do and can’t do anything without God. So, if Jesus does something, it is actually God doing it and the God is actually the savior, Jesus is only the mediator.

For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."
John 12:49-50

I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous; because I don't seek my own will, but the will of my Father who sent me.
John 5:30

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

This means, if we believe what Jesus tells, when Jesus was born, God was also born to this world, because He was in Jesus. God acted through Jesus. And God is the true savior, but he works through Jesus.

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works. …
John 14:10

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, "Forty-six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he spoke of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21

Jesus is the temple of God. That is why, if you receive him, you receive also God.

Most assuredly I tell you, he who receives whomever I send, receives me; and he who receives me, receives him who sent me."
John 13:20

The discussion I had with Deeje was about the meaning of the word 'mediator'. Deeje believes that Jesus Christ can mediate, or be a 'go-between', without being 100% God. I say that to be a true mediator Jesus Christ must be both 100% man and 100% God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The discussion I had with Deeje was about the meaning of the word 'mediator'. Deeje believes that Jesus Christ can mediate, or be a 'go-between', without being 100% God. I say that to be a true mediator Jesus Christ must be both 100% man and 100% God.

Well that's not true. When I pray for someone, I'm a mediator. And I'm 100% human.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Well that's not true. When I pray for someone, I'm a mediator. And I'm 100% human.

Jesus Christ is described as the 'one' mediator [1 Timothy 2:5]. To be the one mediator between God and men, he must have something unique to offer. According to the New Testament, Jesus Christ is sinless and therefore the only man able to make the claim to being the Spirit of truth 'without measure' [John 3:34].

If Christians did not believe that Jesus Christ was the face or countenance of God, they would not be his disciples. If the Father is not in the Son, then the Son should not be served, or worshipped.

 

[Muffled]

The trinity is the only thing unitarians differ from what I know. Whether the creator sent separate a divine human to talk for him or made himself into a human to talk for himself has been debated for awhile. Unitarians christians believe in jesus is medium between god and man. Jesus to a muslim is a prophet. Christians trinitarian and otherwise (i.e. Unitarian Christians) see it quite differently. Different relationship.

One person believes that jesus is an intermediary between god and man, and the other believes god is a human incarnation doesn't exclude both of them from being christian. Muslims go straight to god not one whose equal to him or incarnation of him.

I believe if one truly believes that Jesus is speaking for God either as an intermediary or as a prophet then one must believe what He says. And He says He is God. More importantly He says the Holy Spirit is God and without the Holy Spirit I do not see a person as being a Christian in essence. Of course one may still be called one if one accepts things partially but it isn't the same thing as being one.

Muslims can try to go straight to God but it is not the same thing as having God (in Jesus) promise that connection and believing what He says. Certainly it is possible. I made contact with God before I knew Jesus but knowing Jesus makes it a lot easier.

 

[Muffled]

I am not a Christian I am a Baha'i.

I believe there is still hope for you when Jesus returns.

 

[1213]

.... I say that to be a true mediator Jesus Christ must be both 100% man and 100% God.

Please explain why?

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe there is still hope for you when Jesus returns.

Like wise, but in my view hope is in the Universal.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Please explain why?

I understand that a true mediator must be able to view things from both perspectives; from the perspective of man and the perspective of God. Or, to put it differently, the mediator must be fully human and fully God.

The synoptic Gospels give us the human perspective; the Gospel of John gives us the perspective of the Son of God; that is, God's perspective.

Galatians 3:20 says, 'Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.'

This is a very significant verse because it's saying, I believe, that you cannot mediate if you have only one perspective. But you cannot divide God, either. So Jesus was a man, without doubt, but he also had the Spirit of the Father, without measure [John 3:34] upon him through baptism. The Father is one God [See Ephesians 4:6]

 

[1213]

I understand that a true mediator must be able to view things from both perspectives; from the perspective of man and the perspective of God. ...

So, are you saying that God can’t understand us?

I think mediator means just that the message is delivered through it/him. Similarly, as your computer/internet is a mediator between us so that we can talk to each other.

 

[Redemptionsong]

So, are you saying that God can’t understand us?

I think mediator means just that the message is delivered through it/him. Similarly, as your computer/internet is a mediator between us so that we can talk to each other.

The question is whether or not Jesus knew the Father as one. If the Spirit of the Father was in the Son 'without measure' [John 3:34], then Jesus was clearly fully man and fully God!

If Jesus Christ is worthy of service, then God must be in Him. Do you serve Jesus Christ?

 

[1213]

... then Jesus was clearly fully man and fully God!

Sorry, I don’t think that is what the Bible teaches. And I want to remain in its teachings.

..If Jesus Christ is worthy of service, then God must be in Him. Do you serve Jesus Christ?

What do you think serving Jesus means? I think I serve God.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Sorry, I don’t think that is what the Bible teaches. And I want to remain in its teachings.



What do you think serving Jesus means? I think I serve God.

Psalm 110:1. 'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.'

Jesus refers to this Psalm [Matthew 44:41-46] to prove to the Pharisees that he is come from God. The writer of the Psalm is David, and the Lord [in lower case] is David's Lord and Master. The LORD is God the Father, and He is come to earth in the Son [the Lord]. Therefore, your Lord and master is Jesus Christ.

John 14:7-10. 'If ye had known me [says Jesus], ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.'

John 12:26. 'If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.'

If you think we should be serving God, without serving Jesus Christ, then I think you've been misled. What scripture supports this teaching?

 

[1213]

.... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
...

John 12:26. 'If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.'

If you think we should be serving God, without serving Jesus Christ, then I think you've been misled. What scripture supports this teaching?

I think it depends much on what is meant with serving. I think we can also serve other people and I don’t think that is a problem. The problem is, if we think people are Gods, because as the Bible tells, there is only one true God.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

And, Bible tells Jesus is the image of God. If you have seen the image of God, have you seen God?

in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him were all things created, in the heavens and on the
Colossians 1:14-

 

[Redemptionsong]

I think it depends much on what is meant with serving. I think we can also serve other people and I don’t think that is a problem. The problem is, if we think people are Gods, because as the Bible tells, there is only one true God.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

And, Bible tells Jesus is the image of God. If you have seen the image of God, have you seen God?

in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him were all things created, in the heavens and on the
Colossians 1:14-

We should only serve and worship the one God who is perfectly good and holy.

Was Jesus Christ perfectly good and holy?

What do you think this means? Matthew 19:16,17.
'And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he [Jesus] said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'

Jesus knows that only God is good. So, is Jesus Christ also fully God? If not, can we conclude that Jesus Christ is not perfectly good and holy?

 

[1213]

...
Was Jesus Christ perfectly good and holy?

What do you think this means? Matthew 19:16,17.
'And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he [Jesus] said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'

Jesus knows that only God is good. So, is Jesus Christ also fully God? If not, can we conclude that Jesus Christ is not perfectly good and holy?

I believe what Jesus tells and according to the Matthew 19:16,17 Jesus is not good. Jesus also tells God is greater than him.

…the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

Still, I think Jesus is great and holy. And in my opinion, he is as good as man can be.
For me, he is the king.