Salvation

[Rival]

In Christianity, it is said that Jesus provides salvation. Salvation from what, though? 'Salvation from your sins' seems to be a common answer, but that still sounds vague. It differs from Judaism and Islam in that one can go directly to G-d in repentence. Where did this Christian concept of salvation come from, and from what, exactly is this salvation? Can a Christian go directly to 'God the Father' and ask forgiveness? If not, why not? It seems odd to me that a middleman such as Jesus is needed.

 

[Eddi]

Salvation from what, though?

Salvation from the punishment you deserve because of your sins!

Can Christian go directly to 'God the Father' and ask forgiveness, if not, why not? It seems odd to me that a middleman such as Jesus is needed.

As I see it, God the Father and Jesus Christ are two different dimensions of the same thing (i.e. God) so I don't think it matters who you ask forgiveness from. They are both equally God. Personally speaking, when I pray I address my prayers to "God", not "God The Father" or Jesus Christ.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

In Christianity, it is said that Jesus provides salvation. Salvation from what, though? 'Salvation from your sins' seems to be a common answer, but that still sounds vague. It differs from Judaism and Islam in that one can go directly to G-d in repentence. Where did this Christian concept of salvation come from, and from what, exactly is this salvation? Can a Christian go directly to 'God the Father' and ask forgiveness? If not, why not? It seems odd to me that a middleman such as Jesus is needed.

Salvation from the PENALTY for your sins. The penalty for sin is DEATH. Jesus died so others do not have to die.

 

[Rival]

Salvation from the PENALTY for your sins. The penalty for sin is DEATH. Jesus died so others do not have to die.

Why can't one repent though?

 

[Trailblazer]

Where did this Christian concept of salvation come from, and from what, exactly is this salvation?

Christians believe that they need to be saved from the original sin that was inherited from Adam and Eve, and that is why Jesus had to die on the cross, but that is not a belief I hold. 30: ADAM AND EVE

 

[syo]

In Christianity, people want salvation from death. And Jesus is the final judge for eternal life, I think.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Why can't one repent though?

Jesus paid the price for your sins but you must accept that payment. Repenting is one step in that process.

 

[Kenny]

In Christianity, it is said that Jesus provides salvation. Salvation from what, though? 'Salvation from your sins' seems to be a common answer, but that still sounds vague. It differs from Judaism and Islam in that one can go directly to G-d in repentence. Where did this Christian concept of salvation come from, and from what, exactly is this salvation? Can a Christian go directly to 'God the Father' and ask forgiveness? If not, why not? It seems odd to me that a middleman such as Jesus is needed.

Think of it this way... In the Jewish Law, you had a High-Priest as an intermediary for so many aspects of worship and forgiveness. The High-Priest was the middle man.

We are saved from any separation from God in all aspects of our life and living. After being united with God's Holy Spirit, you can go directly to the Father and ask forgiveness.

 

[Rival]

Jesus paid the price for your sins but you must accept that payment. Repenting is one step in that process.

Why must you accept him though? How can a human take on another's sins and pay for them, and if he does so, why then must you repent if he has taken them? In that case, of what are you repenting? How does this scheme work with regards to Yechezkel 18:21-22,

And if the wicked man repent of all his sins that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he has committed shall not be remembered regarding him: through his righteousness that he has done he shall live.

Nothing here about needing a saviour, and it explicitly says if he repents his wickedness will not be remembered.

 

[Rival]

Think of it this way... In the Jewish Law, you had a High-Priest as an intermediary for so many aspects of worship and forgiveness. The High-Priest was the middle man.

Only for specific instances though. And as we can see from Judaism today, when these rituals are not available, one can still repent.

 

[Trailblazer]

In Christianity, people want salvation from death.

But nobody can be saved from physical death, we will all die physically because the physical body was never designed to live forever. All we can be saved from is spiritual death, and I believe that is what Jesus was referring to in every single verse about death. Likewise, when Jesus spoke of eternal life, He was referring to the eternal life of the soul that is near to God, not eternal life of the physical body.

All these verses refer to eternal life of the soul, not eternal life of the physical body.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jesus makes it very clear that the physical body is not important, only spiritual life is important.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[Kenny]

Only for specific instances though. And as we can see from Judaism today, when these rituals are not available, one can still repent.

Yes, it is true that it is no longer required in Judaism. Is there somewhere in the TaNaKh that G-d said it was no longer required?

Likewise, Jesus (as our Lamb of G-d) is no longer required to be sacrificed and now we can simply go to the Father and ask forgiveness.

1 john 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Nakosis]

Why can't one repent though?

Too much trouble to.
I think Jesus redefined sin from OT breaking God's laws to even thinking of breaking God's law is a sin.

Matt 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Creating an impossible standard to live up to.

Salvation from pain and suffering/death. So you get to go to heaven and experience a wonderful afterlife.

Guys, the guys who thought up this theology couldn't get rid of the wild naked women running amok in their heads.

 

[Jainarayan]

And if the wicked man repent of all his sins that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he has committed shall not be remembered regarding him: through his righteousness that he has done he shall live.

That’s not unlike a verse from the Bhagavad Gita. Even if the vilest sinners worship Me with exclusive devotion, they are to be considered righteous, for they have made the proper resolve. 9.30

 

[Rival]

Yes, it is true that it is no longer required in Judaism. Is there somewhere in the TaNaKh that G-d said it was no longer required?

It's not that it's no longer required, but it's impossible to do seeing as there's no Temple and no way of building one. However, even were there a Temple, not every sin requires a sacrifice, not every offering is for sin, and it's overall more complex than 'for your sins'. It was established by King Shlomo that, were there no Temple, or if the Temple could not be reached, repentence is enough -

II Chronicles 5:34-35
If Your people go out to battle against their enemy, by whatever way You send them, and pray to You toward this city, which You have chosen, and the House that I have built for Your name. You shall hear from heaven their prayer and supplication and maintain their cause.

 

[Trailblazer]

Creating an impossible standard to live up to.

Not impossible, Imo.

 

[Nakosis]

Not impossible, Imo.

Do you believe Jesus's death was necessary to pay for your sins?

 

[Kenny]

It's not that it's no longer required, but it's impossible to do seeing as there's no Temple and no way of building one. However, even were there a Temple, not every sin requires a sacrifice, not every offering is for sin, and it's overall more complex than 'for your sins'. It was established by King Shlomo that, were there no Temple, or if the Temple could not be reached, repentence is enough -

II Chronicles 5:34-35
If Your people go out to battle against their enemy, by whatever way You send them, and pray to You toward this city, which You have chosen, and the House that I have built for Your name. You shall hear from heaven their prayer and supplication and maintain their cause.

Yes... it is impossible yet G-d never said stop. I find that interesting since Lev 16 says 34 And this shall be a statute forever for you, that atonement may be made for the people of Israel once in the year because of all their sins.” And Aaron did as the Lord commanded Moses. - as in "forever". I wonder if G-d agreed with man's assessment. Who knows? He is the judge.

Perhaps that is why, according to our historical books, the Temple veil was rent from top to bottom as if to say, "It will no longer be necessary".

For that matter, it is an impossibility for man to confess every sin. Yet G-d's mercy is higher than the Heaven is from the earth. So, likewise, it isn't necessary to confess every sin because who knows every sin they commit.

Like the goat in Leviticus, when Aaron laid his hands on the goat that is led away, it made atonement "of all their sins". Perhaps that is why it isn't necessary to go to the High-Priest for everything? Because it is culminated in that one act along with the blood on the Ark of the Covenant from the other goat? I do not know.

But what I do know for us is thatJesus represents the goat that takes away all of our sins. Once and forever.

 

[Rival]

Yes... it is impossible yet G-d never said stop. I find that interesting since Lev 16 says 34 And this shall be a statute forever for you, that atonement may be made for the people of Israel once in the year because of all their sins.” And Aaron did as the Lord commanded Moses. - as in "forever". I wonder if G-d agreed with man's assessment. Who knows? He is the judge.

Perhaps that is why, according to our historical books, the Temple veil was rent from top to bottom as if to say, "It will no longer be necessary".

For that matter, it is an impossibility for man to confess every sin. Yet G-d's mercy is higher than the Heaven is from the earth. So, likewise, it isn't necessary to confess every sin because who knows every sin they commit.

Like the goat in Leviticus, when Aaron laid his hands on the goat that is led away, it made atonement "of all their sins". Perhaps that is why it isn't necessary to go to the High-Priest for everything? Because it is culminated in that one act along with the blood on the Ark of the Covenant from the other goat? I do not know.

But for us, Jesus represents the goat that takes away all of our sins. Once and forever.

It is not always necessary because it was/is only needed for unintentional sins.

No, G-d did not say 'stop', but neither does He expect people to do impossible things. Certain prayers are said in place of Temple service, which, as I quoted above, was done from the times of old. It is in accordance with Hoshea 14:3,

Take words with yourselves and return to the Lord. Say, "You shall forgive all iniquity and teach us the good way, and let us render for bulls the offering of our lips.

So really, it has not stopped; it is only being done in a different way, given the limitations.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you believe Jesus's death was necessary to pay for your sins?

No, because Baha'is do not believe in original sin.
The significance of the cross sacrifice for Baha'is is as follows:

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.

The Christ is the central point of the Holy Spirit: He is born of the Holy Spirit; He is raised up by the Holy Spirit; He is the descendant of the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that the Reality of Christ does not descend from 119 Adam; no, it is born of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, this verse in Corinthians, “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive,” means, according to this terminology, that Adam 1 is the father of man—that is to say, He is the cause of the physical life of mankind; His was the physical fatherhood. He is a living soul, but He is not the giver of spiritual life, whereas Christ is the cause of the spiritual life of man, and with regard to the spirit, His was the spiritual fatherhood. Adam is a living soul; Christ is a quickening spirit.

This physical world of man is subject to the power of the lusts, and sin is the consequence of this power of the lusts, for it is not subject to the laws of justice and holiness. The body of man is a captive of nature; it will act in accordance with whatever nature orders. It is, therefore, certain that sins such as anger, jealousy, dispute, covetousness, avarice, ignorance, prejudice, hatred, pride and tyranny exist in the physical world. All these brutal qualities exist in the nature of man. A man who has not had a spiritual education is a brute. Like the savages of Africa, whose actions, habits and morals are purely sensual, they act according to the demands of nature to such a degree that they rend and eat one another. Thus it is evident that the physical world of man is a world of sin. In this physical world man is not distinguished from the animal.

All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.

Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ—that is to say, the Word of God—is the cause of spiritual life. It is “a quickening spirit,” meaning that all the imperfections which come from the requirements of the physical life of man are transformed into human perfections by the teachings and education of that spirit. Therefore, Christ was a quickening spirit, and the cause of life in all mankind.

Adam was the cause of physical life, and as the physical world of man is the world of imperfections, and imperfections are the equivalent of death, Paul compared the physical imperfections to death.

But the mass of the Christians believe that, as Adam ate of the forbidden tree, He sinned in that He disobeyed, and that the disastrous consequences of this disobedience have been transmitted as a heritage and have remained among His descendants. Hence Adam became the cause of the death of humanity. This explanation is unreasonable and evidently wrong, for it means that all men, even the Prophets and the Messengers of God, without committing any sin or fault, but simply because they are the posterity of Adam, have become without reason guilty sinners, and until the day of the sacrifice of Christ were held captive in hell in painful torment. This is far from the justice of God. If Adam was a sinner, what is the sin of Abraham? What is the fault of Isaac, or of Joseph? Of what is Moses guilty?

But Christ, Who is the Word of God, sacrificed Himself. This has two meanings, an apparent and an esoteric meaning. The outward meaning is this: Christ’s intention was to represent and promote a Cause which was to educate the human world, to quicken the children of Adam, and to enlighten all mankind; and since to represent such a great Cause—a Cause which was antagonistic to all the people of the world and all the nations and kingdoms—meant that He would be killed and crucified, so Christ in proclaiming His mission sacrificed His life. He regarded the cross as a throne, the wound as a balm, the poison as honey and sugar. He arose to teach and educate men, and so He sacrificed Himself to give the spirit of life. He perished in body so as to quicken others by the spirit.

The second meaning of sacrifice is this: Christ was like a seed, and this seed sacrificed its own form so that the tree might grow and develop. Although the form of the seed was destroyed, its reality became apparent in perfect majesty and beauty in the form of a tree.

The position of Christ was that of absolute perfection; He made His divine perfections shine like the sun upon all believing souls, and the bounties of the light shone and radiated in the reality of men. This is why He says: “I am the bread which descended from heaven; whosoever shall eat of this bread will not die” 2 —that is to say, that whosoever shall partake of this divine food will attain unto eternal life: that is, every one who partakes of this bounty and receives these perfections will find eternal life, will obtain preexistent favors, will be freed from the darkness of error, and will be illuminated by the light of His guidance.

The form of the seed was sacrificed for the tree, but its perfections, because of this sacrifice, became evident and apparent—the tree, the branches, the leaves and the blossoms being concealed in the seed. When the form of the seed was sacrificed, its perfections appeared in the perfect form of leaves, blossoms and fruits.

Some Answered Questions, pp. 118-121

29: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS