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The corona and end time plagues

Riders

Well-Known Member
So do Christians consider the covid to be a Revelation for told end time plagues? If so for those who believe Christians won't suffer in the end times because they will be taken up to heaven first how do you explain Christians suffering from Covid?
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
I know what you're talking about. But the truth of the matter is that Jesus foretold that the coming "great tribulation" upon human society will affect everyone including Jehovah's people. In fact it says that those days are going to get so bad that if God did not cut those days short no flesh should survive, but on account of the chosen ones, those days would be cut short.

The "chosen ones" are those called to heavenly life, the remnant of the 144,000 still alive on earth. They will live through the great tribulation along with their Christian brothers and sisters who have the earthly hope. Jesus said things will get so bad that if God did not intervene they would all be killed. So there is no way they are not going to be affected by the coming and fear-inspiring "great tribulation:"

"For then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short."-Matthew 24:21-22.

Now I know there are "Christian" denominations that teach the rapture, and that all Christians will be called to heaven before this occurs, but that is clearly not what Jesus says. Jesus says that the anointed remnant would not survive the great tribulation if God did not cut it short.

Most people don't even realize what the great tribulation will be. It is when the governments around the world give their power and authority to the United Nations and it turns upon and destroys religion earthwide.

Jesus' prophecy clearly shows us that the anointed are still on earth through the great tribulation. Jesus says that "immediately after the tribulation" of those days Jesus will arrive in kingdom glory in the heavens with supernatural signs and portents and everyone will have to recognize his power. And that is the time he sends his angels to the four corners of the earth to raise his called and chosen adopted brothers to heavenly spirit life:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."-Matthew 24:29-31.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Why would they do that? Freedom of religion is one of the first things they declared as a basic, fundamental human right.

A good question. To someone that doesn't read the Bible it may sound foolish as well. In fact the religions themselves don't consider themselves in any danger. They say "I sit a queen...I shall never see mourning."

But Bible prophecy shows us that the turning upon religion is a thought that God puts into the hearts of the world's leaders at his time to execute justice on the nations. He will start with religions that claim to serve him. And in God's name that they claim to represent have committed untold acts of atrocity upon human society. God says that their involvement in the world's political arena and the wars of this world have made her an enemy of God, and a spiritual prostitute:

(James 4:4) Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God.

(Revelation 17:1, 2) . . .One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me: “Come, I will show you the judgment on the great prostitute who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality, and earth’s inhabitants were made drunk with the wine of her sexual immorality.”

God says that found within false religion is the blood of every human ever slaughtered, especially that of the prophets and the holy ones:

(Revelation 18:24) . . .Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

So the destruction of religion while it may appear at that time to be a human idea is really the idea of God:

(Revelation 17:17, 18) . . .For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished.

It may sound like an unreality and something that will never occur, but it will come about because Jehovah God who has judged religion is strong:

(Revelation 18:8) . . .That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong.

When that time arrives it will be suddenly and without warning. The nations will be crying out peace and security, and it appears that the religious leaders of the world will go along with their false cry, giving the people of the world a false sense of security but that is when sudden destruction will befall her:

(1 Thessalonians 5:2, 3) . . .For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. 3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape.

The religions of the world will not explain these deep Bible prophecies to you, or explain the urgency of getting out of her if you are a still part of her. Because these prophecies are about her she is not going to expose herself. But Jehovah's people are warning the people:

(Revelation 18:4) And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.


Even this very day many of the so-called Christians who claim to worship the God of the Bible are even now celebrating pagan holidays that worship demons. They ignore this warning:

(1 Corinthians 10:20-22) . . .what the nations sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. 21 You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons. 22 Or ‘are we inciting Jehovah to jealousy’? We are not stronger than he is, are we?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
To someone that doesn't read the Bible it may sound foolish as well.
I've read it--many times--so good, typical Christian assumption.
A good question. To someone that doesn't read the Bible it may sound foolish as well. In fact the religions themselves don't consider themselves in any danger. They say "I sit a queen...I shall never see mourning."

But Bible prophecy shows us that the turning upon religion is a thought that God puts into the hearts of the world's leaders at his time to execute justice on the nations. He will start with religions that claim to serve him. And in God's name that they claim to represent have committed untold acts of atrocity upon human society. God says that their involvement in the world's political arena and the wars of this world have made her an enemy of God, and a spiritual prostitute:

(James 4:4) Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God.

(Revelation 17:1, 2) . . .One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me: “Come, I will show you the judgment on the great prostitute who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality, and earth’s inhabitants were made drunk with the wine of her sexual immorality.”

God says that found within false religion is the blood of every human ever slaughtered, especially that of the prophets and the holy ones:

(Revelation 18:24) . . .Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

So the destruction of religion while it may appear at that time to be a human idea is really the idea of God:

(Revelation 17:17, 18) . . .For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished.

It may sound like an unreality and something that will never occur, but it will come about because Jehovah God who has judged religion is strong:

(Revelation 18:8) . . .That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong.

When that time arrives it will be suddenly and without warning. The nations will be crying out peace and security, and it appears that the religious leaders of the world will go along with their false cry, giving the people of the world a false sense of security but that is when sudden destruction will befall her:

(1 Thessalonians 5:2, 3) . . .For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. 3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape.

The religions of the world will not explain these deep Bible prophecies to you, or explain the urgency of getting out of her if you are a still part of her. Because these prophecies are about her she is not going to expose herself. But Jehovah's people are warning the people:

(Revelation 18:4) And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.


Even this very day many of the so-called Christians who claim to worship the God of the Bible are even now celebrating pagan holidays that worship demons. They ignore this warning:

(1 Corinthians 10:20-22) . . .what the nations sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. 21 You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons. 22 Or ‘are we inciting Jehovah to jealousy’? We are not stronger than he is, are we?
Three issues.
One, the Book of Revalations. There are numerous interpretations of it, many of them not thinking it prophecy to come. Many of them, and having more scholarly support, see this as a first century commentary to the early churches about Rome.
Book of Revelation - Wikipedia
Two, Paul should be rejected as Jesus said there would be those coming after him who claim to speak to him but pay them no heed for they are false prophets.
Three, none of that suggests this hypothetical situation refers to the UN.
And a fourth bonus issue:
Christians have been saying such things for so long now. What makes your claim any different? For two thousand years they've been warning of a pending and sure to be soon end that doesn't happen.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Jesus' prophecy clearly shows us that the anointed are still on earth through the great tribulation. Jesus says that "immediately after the tribulation" of those days Jesus will arrive.....
I am sorry to say that Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world....

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


How do you explain those verses? Moreover, how you do explanation the fact that there are no verses in the New Testament wherein Jesus says He is going to return to earth, not one single verse? What does that say to those who are still awaiting His return?

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Christians have been saying such things for so long now. What makes your claim any different? For two thousand years they've been warning of a pending and sure to be soon end that doesn't happen.
Christians have also been waiting for two thousand years for Jesus to return, even though Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world, and even though there is not even one Bible verse wherein Jesus promised to return. ;)
Doesn't that seem rather strange to you?

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
I've read it--many times--so good, typical Christian assumption.

Three issues.
One, the Book of Revalations. There are numerous interpretations of it, many of them not thinking it prophecy to come. Many of them, and having more scholarly support, see this as a first century commentary to the early churches about Rome.
Book of Revelation - Wikipedia
Two, Paul should be rejected as Jesus said there would be those coming after him who claim to speak to him but pay them no heed for they are false prophets.
Three, none of that suggests this hypothetical situation refers to the UN.
And a fourth bonus issue:
Christians have been saying such things for so long now. What makes your claim any different? For two thousand years they've been warning of a pending and sure to be soon end that doesn't happen.

I wasn't implying you didn't read the Bible. I just made the comment that it may seem absurd to those who haven't read the Bible. Even still, many don't understand the prophecies within it.

Revelation was given by Jesus to the apostle John exiled on the island of Patmos at the end of the first century, around 92 C. E. Right after John's death the great apostasy that was foretold commenced. Jesus said that the Revelation was for the "Lord's day." This was then yet future:

(Revelation 1:9, 10) 9 I John, your brother and a sharer with you in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in association with Jesus, was on the island called Patʹmos for speaking about God and bearing witness concerning Jesus. 10 By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day. . .

The Lord's day started in 1914. So we already know that the prophecies in Revelation have to do with the last days, in the time in which we live, or the "Lord's day" as Revelation put it.

Even sincere-hearted ones can read prophecy in Holy Scripture and not understand them. This happened to the Ethiopian Eunuch. While he was reading a prophecy in the scroll of Isaiah about Jesus Christ, Philip was lead by the spirit to teach him the truth. Just because the Ethiopian was reading part of the Bible doesn't mean he knew what it meant. He himself said:

(Acts 8:30, 31) . . .Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” 31 He said: “Really, how could I ever do so unless someone guided me?"

The letters of apostle Paul are part of Bible canon and are in agreement with the rest of Holy Scripture. There is nothing in Paul's words that are in disagreement with the rest of God's inspired words found in the Bible. God's spirit itself affirmed that Paul was writing under inspiration.

I know you have many people here that would like to erode your faith and trust in the Bible. But they usually are misguided themselves and some have ulterior motives. They lack love of God and his word. And have no faith.

We are told this:

(1 John 2:22, 23) . . .Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either. But whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

This website is replete with people who have no faith in Jesus Christ and reject his word and reject the Bible. These are among the antichrist. They are against the Messiah, and against God's word.

As for the United Nations, in Bible prophecy wild beasts refer to political powers. Let me give you an example:

(Daniel 8:20, 21) . . .“The ram that you saw possessing the two horns [stands for] the kings of Meʹdi·a and Persia. 21 And the hairy he-goat [stands for] the king of Greece; and as for the great horn that was between its eyes, it [stands for] the first king.

There is more to that prophecy than just this, but it is sufficient to illustrate the point. The wild beast that we see mentioned in Revelation 17 and 18 is also a political entity. It gets its power from all the previous world powers of Bible prophecy that comes before it, and is an image of the first wild beast that had the 7 heads and 10 horns. 7 is the number of the world powers that had direct influence in God's people in the Bible and refer to: (1) Egypt, (2) Assyria, (3) Babylon, (4) Medo-Perisa, (5) Greece, (6) Rome, (7)Anglo-American world power. 10 represents something that is complete in an earthly respect. The ten diadems on the 7 heads of the wild beast would represent all world governments. All the nations gather together to give this "peace beast" teeth. They claim it will bring peace and security to earth. It was, is not, but comes out of the abyss. It was after WWI when the League of Nations was established, it "is not" during WWII when it received the head stroke and ceased to exist, failing to prevent another world war. It continued to exist again as a revived United Nations after WWII.

So the Wild Beast that the prostitute rides are the kings of the earth with which she commits spiritual sexual immorality with. The prostitute herself sits on many waters which means the peoples and tribes and language groups of the earth. She is religion that has prostituted herself with the rulers of the world. The prophecy shows us that they will unite and give power to the United Nations and all serve as a "world-power" for 1 hour to turn upon false religion, expose her for what she is, and do away with her, ripping her to shreds, tearing her apart, and burning what is left of her.


Christians have been saying such things for so long now. What makes your claim any different? For two thousand years they've been warning of a pending and sure to be soon end that doesn't happen.

(2 Peter 3:3, 4) 3 First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”

The fact of the matter is thoughts and comments like yours were not only prophesied to come, but are expected because from a human standpoint who does not perceive things spiritually God has taken too long to act. But it is for this reason:

(2 Peter 3:8-10) . . .However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 9 Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 But Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be exposed.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Christians have also been waiting for two thousand years for Jesus to return, even though Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world, and even though there is not even one Bible verse wherein Jesus promised to return. ;)
Doesn't that seem rather strange to you?

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
Not really.
Those are some interesting points, by the way. Something I've never considered before, having been taught to take for granted Son of Man refers to Jesus.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Revelation was given by Jesus to the apostle John exiled on the island of Patmos at the end of the first century, around 92 C. E. Right after John's death the great apostasy that was foretold commenced
Yeah. It refers to events then. Not the UN or today.
And what you provided nothing to actually attach it to the UN anyways.
It doesn't even tie into the situation with Covid.

There is nothing in Paul's words that are in disagreement with the rest of God's inspired words found in the Bible. God's spirit itself affirmed that Paul was writing under inspiration.
That's another thread, but I assure Paul does often contradict Jesus.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
I am sorry to say that Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world....

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


How do you explain those verses? Moreover, how you do explanation the fact that there are no verses in the New Testament wherein Jesus says He is going to return to earth, not one single verse? What does that say to those who are still awaiting His return?

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Jesus finished the work he came to do which is to preach the good news of God's kingdom and to give up his life as a ransom sacrifice for everyone exercising faith in him to have everlasting life and not be destroyed. That has nothing to do with what he was to do in the future.

Jesus returned to heaven, and there he is and will stay. His return is an invisible spirit presence. He will not appear in the flesh on earth, as he was resurrected in an immortal spirit body and no man can see him anymore because he resides in light far too bright for us:

(1 Timothy 6:15, 16) . . .He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. . . .


When Jesus returns to smash the kingdoms of this earth to pieces that will also be from heaven. As even he said:

(Matthew 24:27, 28) . . .For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be.  Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

His return will be like lightning flashing across the sky from the east to the west. It will be earthwide from heaven in an instant. It will be visible to all mankind because of the sign of the son of man that will appear in heaven.

Again we are told that he will return, not to the earth but on the clouds of heaven:

(Matthew 24:30) . . .and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


You ask who is the son of man?

He is none other than the one that receives the kingdom from Jehovah God in Daniel's vision:

(Daniel 7:13, 14) 13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.


This is important who is this son of man? He is in heaven in Daniel's vision. He approaches Jehovah's throne and is given a rulership that will last forever and a kingdom that will crush and put an end to all other kingdoms.

Jesus Christ was given that authority when he returned to heaven in God's due time. He rightly carries the title "son of man" because he became human and was born of a virgin woman.

He is the "word of God" the "King of kings and Lord of lords":

(Revelation 19:11-16) . . .. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and on his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God. 14 Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15 And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
 
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Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Yeah. It refers to events then

That is not what is written. We are clearly told:

(Revelation 1:10) . . .By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day. . .

So at the very beginning of Revelation John makes it clear that the prophecy was concerning the future presence of Jesus Christ which started in 1914. We have been in the "Lord's day" since 1914. It became the Lord's day because in that year he was coronated as king of God's kingdom government in heaven. This ushered in the last days of the system of things we live in. We have thus been living in the time of the end for 106 years.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Not really.
Those are some interesting points, by the way. Something I've never considered before, having been taught to take for granted Son of Man refers to Jesus.
Jesus was the Son of Man, but the return of the Son of Man in the clouds of heaven was not going to be the same man Jesus.

The title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but it does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah. It is a Baha’i teaching that the title applies to both Jesus and Baha’u’llah.

I believe that Baha’u’llah was one like the Son of man who came in the clouds of heaven.

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

To explain in brief, I believe that ‘Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven’ means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.

To further explain the teaming of clouds, Baha’is believe that the term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. They signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current among men. In another sense, they mean the appearance of a Manifestation of God in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. These “veils” to recognition of a Manifestation of God are symbolically referred to as “clouds.” Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the Manifestation of God.

Thus the meaning of clouds is symbolic, not literal. Their judgment was clouded. Christians were looking for the same man Jesus in the same body that resurrected and ascended to appear in the actual physical clouds in the sky with power and great glory, trumpets and angels, but when that did not happen that way they rejected Baha’u’llah. However, if one looks at what happened before, during and after Baha’u’llah appeared there is not one prophecy that cannot be applied to Him. The evidence is incontrovertible for anyone who bothers to look at it, but most Christians will not look because they are waiting for the same man Jesus.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
@Trailblazer

Jesus' return will be on the clouds of heavens in that it will be an invisible presence. Just as when the sun is on the clouds you cannot see it.

Jesus earned the title "son of man" when he came to earth and emptied his prehuman spirit body to be born a human. You can actually see my previous post to you about that.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Jesus finished the work he came to do which is to preach the good news of God's kingdom and to give up his life as a ransom sacrifice for everyone exercising faith in him to have everlasting life and not be destroyed. That has nothing to do with what he was to do in the future.

Jesus returned to heaven, and there he is and will stay. His return is an invisible spirit presence. He will not appear in the flesh on earth, as he was resurrected in an immortal spirit body and no man can see him anymore because he resides in light far too bright for us:

(1 Timothy 6:15, 16) . . .He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. . . .
I agree that Jesus is in heaven in a spiritual body, but I do not believe that Jesus had any plans to do anything in the future that involves earth, and there is nothing in the Bible that says that He will..
When Jesus returns to smash the kingdoms of this earth to pieces that will also be from heaven. As even he said:

(Matthew 24:27, 28) . . .For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be.  Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

His return will be like lightning flashing across the sky from the east to the west. It will be earthwide from heaven in an instant. It will be visible to all mankind because of the sign of the son of man that will appear in heaven.

Again we are told that he will return, not to the earth but on the clouds of heaven:

(Matthew 24:30) . . .and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

You ask who is the son of man?

He is none other than the one that receives the kingdom from Jehovah God in Daniel's vision:

(Daniel 7:13, 14) 13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.
I believe that all these verses are about Baha'u'llah, who I believe was the return of the Christ Spirit and the return of the Son of Man in the clouds. I just explained that in this post #14 Trailblazer, 10 minutes ago , so there is no need for me to repeat myself.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Jesus earned the title "son of man" when he came to earth and emptied he prehuman spirit body to be born a human. You can actually see my previous post to you about that.
But yet Jesus did say this:
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. (Luke 9:26)
It seems Jesus is referring to someone else who will come in his own glory, and his Father's. Not "my," as Jesus often said such as in John 14:6.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
@Trailblazer

Jesus' return will be on the clouds of heavens in that it will be an invisible presence. Just as when the sun is on the clouds you cannot see it.

Jesus earned the title "son of man" when he came to earth and emptied his prehuman spirit body to be born a human. You can actually see my previous post to you about that.
I agree that Jesus had preexistence in the spiritual world before He was born into this world, but I do not believe that the same Jesus is going to literally return in the clouds.
.
You are free to believe that if you want to but I have different beliefs, as I just said in this post:
#14 Trailblazer, 15 minutes ago
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
But yet Jesus did say this:
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. (Luke 9:26)
It seems Jesus is referring to someone else who will come in his own glory, and his Father's. Not "my," as Jesus often said such as in John 14:6.

Jesus often referred to himself in the 3rd person when speaking of his future return to judge mankind. That doesn't mean he wasn't referring to himself. It reflects his great humility that he had, and reflects the humility his Father has as well. That is why only humble and meek people are drawn to them.

Jesus could have very easily replaced "son of man" with "I" or "me" every time he said it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But yet Jesus did say this:
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. (Luke 9:26)
It seems Jesus is referring to someone else who will come in his own glory, and his Father's. Not "my," as Jesus often said such as in John 14:6.
Jesus never referred to Himself as the Son of man who would return in the clouds, Jesus always spoke in the third person. Christians just assumed he was talking about Himself because Jesus was the Son of man.

There is no way Christians can make any of the Son of man in the clouds verses be about the same man Jesus who spoke in the NT because it is obvious that Jesus is referring to another man.

Look carefully at Mark 8:38. Look at how the verse is separated by a semicolon and then Jesus says “of him also” indicating that the Son of man is someone other than Himself who would come in the glory of his Father.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Again, in Matthew 16:27, Jesus said that the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father. Jesus did not say “I will come in the glory of my Father.”

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
 
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