Who causes christian adversity ?

[Neuropteron]

History shows that "real" Christian have never been popular with the world, and have been counted as the off-scouring among men, even or especially from those who have placed themselves as the guardians of Christian truth- the clergy of Christendom-.

Some might say: That's quite a accusation! My humble, serene and pious local priest a persecutor of Christians ? Well... maybe not, but think about this:

Those that persecuted and killed Jesus were the Scribes, Pharisees, Saducees and Levitical Priests, together they made up the clergy of that time.

But, surely after that they would have changed, right ?
We would think that the ecclesiastical body would undergo a change of attitude, especially since they eventually seemingly accepted the Lord Jesus as their savior?

Well No! They didn't, because it was only a political ploy to fuse pagan and christian beliefs into a state controlled religion under Pontius Maximus(Constantine). This religious leader then decreed a host of unscriptural beliefs based on philosophies, metaphysics and pagan mythology instead of the Holy scriptures and the teachings of Christ. Many witch, by the way, are still embraced by Christendom today.

This later bred to a state controlled faith under Papal control, where any dissenting opinion, even or specifically based on the bible was declared heresy.
What then followed was a mock court who always ruled that the heretic was to be mercilessly tortured and burned at the stake along with his/her bible, (preferably slowly). The mignons to do the work were know as the Dominican Priests (The dogs of God) who specialized in flagellation, and viewed torture as a form of art.

Organized religious bodies that protested the Papal autocracy behaved no better, for instance John Calvin also burned Christians that did not agree with his so-called orthodox doctrines.

My question is this:

Has today's clergy class absolved themselves from the crimes of their predecessors, or have they continued their iniquity albeit in a more covert manner, thus deserving Christs accusation at Jo 8:44 ?

Do the clergy rightfully wear their high sounding titles due to their piety, great righteousness and God's approval, or rather have today's clergy exalted themselves, as the clergy of Jesus days have done ?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I've had some bad experiences with Christianity with all due respect for the religion, and one was from a Christian religious leader who caused me some problems.

I don't even know what Christianity is sometimes as I see three versions:

1. The modern church with its occasional corruption but oftentimes conservative views
2. TV pastors and politicized Christianity with their far right views and all radicalism
3. The original teachings of Jesus

I do like number 3 though.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

But I must ask, are we talking only about Catholicism here?

 

[danieldemol]

When JWs shun people who convert to other Christian sects away from JW they are causing Christian adversity.

Its a two way street

 

[Brian2]

History shows that "real" Christian have never been popular with the world, and have been counted as the off-scouring among men, even or especially from those who have placed themselves as the guardians of Christian truth- the clergy of Christendom-.

Some might say: That's quite a accusation! My humble, serene and pious local priest a persecutor of Christians ? Well... maybe not, but think about this:

Those that persecuted and killed Jesus were the Scribes, Pharisees, Saducees and Levitical Priests, together they made up the clergy of that time.

But, surely after that they would have changed, right ?
We would think that the ecclesiastical body would undergo a change of attitude, especially since they eventually seemingly accepted the Lord Jesus as their savior?

Well No! They didn't, because it was only a political ploy to fuse pagan and christian beliefs into a state controlled religion under Pontius Maximus(Constantine). This religious leader then decreed a host of unscriptural beliefs based on philosophies, metaphysics and pagan mythology instead of the Holy scriptures and the teachings of Christ. Many witch, by the way, are still embraced by Christendom today.

This later bred to a state controlled faith under Papal control, where any dissenting opinion, even or specifically based on the bible was declared heresy.
What then followed was a mock court who always ruled that the heretic was to be mercilessly tortured and burned at the stake along with his/her bible, (preferably slowly). The mignons to do the work were know as the Dominican Priests (The dogs of God) who specialized in flagellation, and viewed torture as a form of art.

Organized religious bodies that protested the Papal autocracy behaved no better, for instance John Calvin also burned Christians that did not agree with his so-called orthodox doctrines.

My question is this:

Has today's clergy class absolved themselves from the crimes of their predecessors, or have they continued their iniquity albeit in a more covert manner, thus deserving Christs accusation at Jo 8:44 ?

Do the clergy rightfully wear their high sounding titles due to their piety, great righteousness and God's approval, or rather have today's clergy exalted themselves, as the clergy of Jesus days have done ?

It is a tough problem. Jesus said that there would be tares amongst the wheat but to leave them until the judgement day. Jesus said that Satan has sown the tares.
Jesus did say that the Church would be protected however and would not be overcome by the deceiver.
This has been the case imo and even when the Church has seemed irredeemable it has survived and come good again, to a large extent. There are always flaws in the Church members of course, and these Church members also include members of the clergy.
With the idea in mind that the Church will not be overcome completely by evil and Satan I think that newer versions of Christianity that disagree with and attack the gospel and present a different gospel and a different view of who Jesus is are not necessarily amongst the tares but are amongst those who exalt themselves as the ones having the only truth and the ones to whom people must come in order to be saved. This sort of takes away from Jesus whom is the one we must come to and puts the focus on a man made organisation.
I think your view of what you call Christendom is very limited and seems to only look at a biased view of history and some bad things that have happened in the Church.

 

[Rival]

Those that persecuted and killed Jesus were the Scribes, Pharisees, Saducees and Levitical Priests, together they made up the clergy of that time.

The Romans killed Jesus.

I think some people need to keep reading the above sentence until it sticks.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The Romans killed Jesus.

I think some people need to keep reading the above sentence until it sticks.

Yes, he was executed for sedition by the Romans. Crucifixion was a Roman form of execution.

 

[pearl]

Those that persecuted and killed Jesus were the Scribes, Pharisees, Saducees and Levitical Priests, together they made up the clergy of that time.

Jesus was not a Christian.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

History shows that "real" Christian have never been popular with the world, and have been counted as the off-scouring among men, even or especially from those who have placed themselves as the guardians of Christian truth- the clergy of Christendom-.

Some might say: That's quite a accusation! My humble, serene and pious local priest a persecutor of Christians ? Well... maybe not, but think about this:

Those that persecuted and killed Jesus were the Scribes, Pharisees, Saducees and Levitical Priests, together they made up the clergy of that time.

But, surely after that they would have changed, right ?
We would think that the ecclesiastical body would undergo a change of attitude, especially since they eventually seemingly accepted the Lord Jesus as their savior?

Well No! They didn't, because it was only a political ploy to fuse pagan and christian beliefs into a state controlled religion under Pontius Maximus(Constantine). This religious leader then decreed a host of unscriptural beliefs based on philosophies, metaphysics and pagan mythology instead of the Holy scriptures and the teachings of Christ. Many witch, by the way, are still embraced by Christendom today.

This later bred to a state controlled faith under Papal control, where any dissenting opinion, even or specifically based on the bible was declared heresy.
What then followed was a mock court who always ruled that the heretic was to be mercilessly tortured and burned at the stake along with his/her bible, (preferably slowly). The mignons to do the work were know as the Dominican Priests (The dogs of God) who specialized in flagellation, and viewed torture as a form of art.

Organized religious bodies that protested the Papal autocracy behaved no better, for instance John Calvin also burned Christians that did not agree with his so-called orthodox doctrines.

My question is this:

Has today's clergy class absolved themselves from the crimes of their predecessors, or have they continued their iniquity albeit in a more covert manner, thus deserving Christs accusation at Jo 8:44 ?

Do the clergy rightfully wear their high sounding titles due to their piety, great righteousness and God's approval, or rather have today's clergy exalted themselves, as the clergy of Jesus days have done ?

So in the same post, you:

- rail against the persecution of Christians.
- condemn the Christians who you personally disapprove of.

Sounds like you are part of the problem you're complaining about.

 

[Brian2]

The Romans killed Jesus.

I think some people need to keep reading the above sentence until it sticks.

That sounds like racism against the pour Romans.
How come you believe that part of the gospel story and not the bits about the part that the religious leaders of the day played and even the Jews who chose Barabbas over Jesus to be released?

 

[Rival]

That sounds like racism against the pour Romans.
How come you believe that part of the gospel story and not the bits about the part that the religious leaders of the day played and even the Jews who chose Barabbas over Jesus to be released?

I believe the gospels have kernels of truth among theological fiction as I believe Jesus was a real man. The one main thing historical Jesus scholars agree on is that he was crucified and crucifixion is a Roman punishment, alongside the fact that the Jews had no Sanhedrin at that time and couldn't put anyone to death, especially not by crucifixion as it's not a halachic method of capital punishment.

 

[ChristineM]

History shows that "real" Christian have never been popular with the world, and have been counted as the off-scouring among men, even or especially from those who have placed themselves as the guardians of Christian truth- the clergy of Christendom-.

Some might say: That's quite a accusation! My humble, serene and pious local priest a persecutor of Christians ? Well... maybe not, but think about this:

Those that persecuted and killed Jesus were the Scribes, Pharisees, Saducees and Levitical Priests, together they made up the clergy of that time.

But, surely after that they would have changed, right ?
We would think that the ecclesiastical body would undergo a change of attitude, especially since they eventually seemingly accepted the Lord Jesus as their savior?

Well No! They didn't, because it was only a political ploy to fuse pagan and christian beliefs into a state controlled religion under Pontius Maximus(Constantine). This religious leader then decreed a host of unscriptural beliefs based on philosophies, metaphysics and pagan mythology instead of the Holy scriptures and the teachings of Christ. Many witch, by the way, are still embraced by Christendom today.

This later bred to a state controlled faith under Papal control, where any dissenting opinion, even or specifically based on the bible was declared heresy.
What then followed was a mock court who always ruled that the heretic was to be mercilessly tortured and burned at the stake along with his/her bible, (preferably slowly). The mignons to do the work were know as the Dominican Priests (The dogs of God) who specialized in flagellation, and viewed torture as a form of art.

Organized religious bodies that protested the Papal autocracy behaved no better, for instance John Calvin also burned Christians that did not agree with his so-called orthodox doctrines.

My question is this:

Has today's clergy class absolved themselves from the crimes of their predecessors, or have they continued their iniquity albeit in a more covert manner, thus deserving Christs accusation at Jo 8:44 ?

Do the clergy rightfully wear their high sounding titles due to their piety, great righteousness and God's approval, or rather have today's clergy exalted themselves, as the clergy of Jesus days have done ?

I have had some bad experiences with christians, in one case instigated by a CofE clergyman, another aided and abetted by a Catholic Priest.

My view is they can be a pretty terrible breed who excuses themselves by hanging on to the 'gods work' copout

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That sounds like racism against the pour Romans.

But blaming the Jews isn't racism?

 

[Estro Felino]

I think the process of modernization of the Christian Churches enables them to gain Christians' trust. Nowadays the RCC, despite the crimes of the past, wants to clear its own name, by welcoming everybody, even LGBT people.
Many priests serenely admit their homosexuality.
But the path is still long.


@Brian2
Romans crucified hundreds of thousands of people. Not only Jesus. Does this target today Romans? Of course not. I don't feel targeted.

 

[HonestJoe]

That sounds like racism against the pour Romans.
How come you believe that part of the gospel story and not the bits about the part that the religious leaders of the day played and even the Jews who chose Barabbas over Jesus to be released?

Does it matter? Regardless of whether the Romans, the Jews or some mixture of both were responsible for the crucifixion, how can it have anything to do with Christian "adversity" given Christianity obviously didn't even exist at that point?

 

[Nova2216]

There is no clergy / laity in christianity. All men stand on level ground at the foot of the cross (2Cor.5:10,11). A preacher may be corrected just as a church member may be corrected (Gal. 6:1,2). Many times the problems begin when those who are in power want more power. They will go beyond what the scriptures teach and that is sin (1Jn 3:4).

Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you

 

[Brian2]

Does it matter? Regardless of whether the Romans, the Jews or some mixture of both were responsible for the crucifixion, how can it have anything to do with Christian "adversity" given Christianity obviously didn't even exist at that point?

It is true that it is off topic.

 

[Brian2]

I believe the gospels have kernels of truth among theological fiction as I believe Jesus was a real man. The one main thing historical Jesus scholars agree on is that he was crucified and crucifixion is a Roman punishment, alongside the fact that the Jews had no Sanhedrin at that time and couldn't put anyone to death, especially not by crucifixion as it's not a halachic method of capital punishment.

The Sanhedrin was in Jerusalem till the time of the rebellion around 70AD. They could sentence someone to death but only the Romans had the power to carry out the sentence, hence the political intrigue about getting Pilate to agree to Jesus death.
In the gospel stories the Jews seemed to want to take the law into their own hands on occasion and are said to have wanted to stone Jesus and get rid of Him in other ways and are known to have stoned James, Jesus brother a while after Jesus death. Acts has a story of the stoning of Steven the first Christian martyr.

 

[Rival]

The Sanhedrin was in Jerusalem till the time of the rebellion around 70AD. They could sentence someone to death but only the Romans had the power to carry out the sentence, hence the political intrigue about getting Pilate to agree to Jesus death.
In the gospel stories the Jews seemed to want to take the law into their own hands on occasion and are said to have wanted to stone Jesus and get rid of Him in other ways and are known to have stoned James, Jesus brother a while after Jesus death. Acts has a story of the stoning of Steven the first Christian martyr.

Yes, this is the point; they thus has no power to sentence anyone to death because it would not be in accordance with Halacha. Crucifixion is not a halachically sound method of capital punishment.

 

[PureX]

Adversarial religiosity is nothing compared the 'adversarial sporting'! Sports are almost 100% adversarial! Or 'adversarial politics'. Politics, too, are very adversarial. And getting more and more that way, every day. And don't even get me started on the adversarial nature of commerce. That's the epitome of "us vs. everyone else". Even marriages, which are intended to be the exact opposite of adversarial, often end up becoming adversarial.

So I'm not sure why religion being adversarial should be surprising to anyone. Even when religions are more often than not intending to diminish our propensity for competing and combating with our fellow humans.