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JW and people's safety

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
We do not force our views on others

JW's force their views on this issue constantly on their children. They literally let their children die by forcing their own religious dogmatic nonsense about blood transfusion on those kids.
These kids didn't come up with that nonsense.
Their doctors most definatly didn't.


Over here in Belgium, you can be charged with murder for such things under certain circumstances.
A doctor is obligated to respect your wishes if you are an adult. But if it concerns adults deciding for their minor children, different story.
The doctor has to act in the patient's best interest. And respecting the wish of a third party (the parents) to sign a death warrant for that patient, isn't exactly in the patient's best interest.

So the doctor is simply going to do the transfusion anyway if he deems it necessary.

but feel duty bound to warn people about an outdated medical procedure that some doctors still cling to. After watching the video, would you still want blood? If you knew that there were safer and more effective treatments, wouldn't you prefer them?

Blood is given for many different reasons in many different situations and a single propaganda video isn't going to cover them all.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
As the old saying goes..."there's more than one way to skin a cat". Face to face is the best way to present the message as there are nuances of speech and body language that contribute to any discussion, that is not possible with written communication although the bare bones of a subject can be transmitted that way.
So, the Bible is just the bare bones of God's message?

Ciao

- viole
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Piggy backing on the other thread, I'm curious. One JW here said that jesus calls them to evangelize...and (in my words) will do so despite the others disinterest etc. They also, I believe, don't agree with blood transfusions that in my view would save lives to those who need it.

Yet, the door to door visiting has been stopped temporarily. Why is that?

If evangelization and medical waivers of treatment etc are acknowledged as gods laws, why would JW postpone door to door visits?

They can wear shields and don't need to be in people's homes to get people to come to Christ. What's special about this corona situation than the others mentioned?

Because fear.

It has nothing to do with precautions people could be taking, and more to do with that people are currently afraid of other people. They go into elaborate denial, but neither distance nor masks will convince them to calm down.

1. If your face mask works, then you should be protected from me, even if I choose not to wear one. Why insist that I stay far away from you?
2. If face masks do not protect, then why must we wear one? Why breathe bad dusty air?

This is called a Morton's Fork. Two notions have opposite reasons for the same result. That would be to, as Trump said, stop letting Coronavirus dominate your life. Either masks work or they don't, but in either case there is a reason why people can choose not to wear one.

But fear. What people are really afraid of is not disease at all. It's that other people have let us down, and all of those feelings bubble to the surface. "No, I'm pretty sure I'm afraid of a disease." No, you're NOT. You're riled up into blocking conservative or liberal family members on Facebook well before this. You're staring at tablet screens well before this. You're separated into political cliques well before this. And an election year disease comes by and rather than questioning whether this is to keep you from the polls, most people ride the tide of what they are already feeling. Right after a impeachment failed (if you studied political science this wouldn't be a surprise), your world is uncertain "how could this happen" (seriously dude, study political science), and you don't trust anyone. Friends and family might have stood with Trump and gotten him elected, I need to stay far away from them, like 6 feet or so... what's this? A big scary disease with often no symptoms? Why anyone could have it! (Yeah that's one way of seeing it, how I see it is that if there are no symptoms, nobody could have it) All the more reason to hole myself up in my room.

A good hysteria uses repressed feelings as its fuel. The Salem Witch Hunts were mostly made of a tightly knit community, pettiness and suspicion, a fiery preacher, and some young girls peeved at other people. An Us vs Them mentality. This is always what creates hysteria.

But God doesn't want our fear. "Do not be afraid." It's actually mentioned enough in the Bible that you could read one passage every day for a year.
List Of 365 Fear Not Bible Verses | Believers Portal
Supposedly anyway. I didn't count.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
1. If your face mask works, then you should be protected from me, even if I choose not to wear one. Why insist that I stay far away from you?
2. If face masks do not protect, then why must we wear one? Why breathe bad dusty air?.
Seriously?

No one suggests that masks provide 100% protection. Try thinking before posting.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Seriously?

No one suggests that masks provide 100% protection. Try thinking before posting.

99.9% then? The point is people are fussing over none mask people and calling them killers and uncaring about people. That 1% means nothing to them. It's not the numbers but the majority. Take RF alone.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
99.9% then? The point is people are fussing over none mask people and calling them killers and uncaring about people. That 1% means nothing to them. It's not the numbers but the majority.
That you would fabricate a statistic and then pretend it to be a fact does not even rise to the level of sophomoric. It is irresponsibly stupid.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
That you would fabricate a statistic and then pretend it to be a fact does not even rise to the level of sophomoric. It is irresponsibly stupid.

No. Masks do work. Excuse the comparison, but they're not god. The attitude is the issue-fear, anger, calling people names, not the masks themselves.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
It has nothing to do with precautions people could be taking, and more to do with that people are currently afraid of other people. They go into elaborate denial, but neither distance nor masks will convince them to calm down.

Most definitely. Where that comes from, I don't know. I know it isn't an unconscious thing because we would all be in fear. Media?

1. If your face mask works, then you should be protected from me, even if I choose not to wear one. Why insist that I stay far away from you?

2. If face masks do not protect, then why must we wear one? Why breathe bad dusty air?

The first, maybe extra protection since they don't know who has the illness and who doesn't.

The second, I see it more masks lowers the risk not protects. Paper and cotton masks I don't agree they work highly as well as medical masks and other specialty masks. Also, we'd need to be around people a lot for there to be a reason to use the masks. So, generalizing the entire population as "must wear mask" is not realistic.... but I get what you saying. The attitude and fear behind it is what gets me not the actual wearing masks.

This is called a Morton's Fork. Two notions have opposite reasons for the same result. That would be to, as Trump said, stop letting Coronavirus dominate your life. Either masks work or they don't, but in either case there is a reason why people can choose not to wear one.

True. I do agree with the president on that one. (Him being trump is besides the point)

But fear. What people are really afraid of is not disease at all. It's that other people have let us down, and all of those feelings bubble to the surface. "No, I'm pretty sure I'm afraid of a disease." No, you're NOT. You're riled up into blocking conservative or liberal family members on Facebook well before this. You're staring at tablet screens well before this. You're separated into political cliques well before this. And an election year disease comes by and rather than questioning whether this is to keep you from the polls, most people ride the tide of what they are already feeling. Right after a impeachment failed (if you studied political science this wouldn't be a surprise), your world is uncertain "how could this happen" (seriously dude, study political science), and you don't trust anyone. Friends and family might have stood with Trump and gotten him elected, I need to stay far away from them, like 6 feet or so... what's this? A big scary disease with often no symptoms? Why anyone could have it! (Yeah that's one way of seeing it, how I see it is that if there are no symptoms, nobody could have it) All the more reason to hole myself up in my room

Good point. I don't follow politics long enough to get me sick, but yeah. Bias, anger, etc is contagious. I think if the politics weren't in it, people would have a lot more grounding. That. Maybe not so many people would have died because of it. (That in itself is a topic)

A good hysteria uses repressed feelings as its fuel. The Salem Witch Hunts were mostly made of a tightly knit community, pettiness and suspicion, a fiery preacher, and some young girls peeved at other people. An Us vs Them mentality. This is always what creates hysteria.
True
But God doesn't want our fear. "Do not be afraid." It's actually mentioned enough in the Bible that you could read one passage every day for a year.

With the JW thing, that would be a good verse to use. That, and it wouldnt seem necessary to stop door to door (though Im glad they did at least now) because they could have worn masks and shields and still evangalized.
 

Vee

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yet, the door to door visiting has been stopped temporarily. Why is that?

If evangelization and medical waivers of treatment etc are acknowledged as gods laws, why would JW postpone door to door visits?

They can wear shields and don't need to be in people's homes to get people to come to Christ. What's special about this corona situation than the others mentioned?

At the moment, we're being told to social distance so people can be safer. If that's a good idea or not, it's up for debate, but we're law abiding citizens and we're respecting the instructions. But since we're lucky to be in 2020, that doesn't make us unavailable. We happen to have the most translated website in the world with loads of information - written, audio and video - available to anyone with an internet connection. And for those who want a more personal contact, all it takes is fill the form on the website, leave an email or phone number and someone will get in touch with you. We also have phones and some people are still writing letters. Imagine the joy of receiving something other than advertisement or invoices in the post!
We might be low key, but we're very efficient :)

I can't see any connection between this situation and us not accepting blood transfusions. Making myself available to help people learn about the bible is a sign of my love for others. It means I want to do what I can to help them. Me not wanting a blood transfusion means I love God and want to obey his command, and has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Just want to add this here. Someone in this thread posted that JWs cover up child abuse.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/pub-jwban_201507_2_VIDEO

This bore bringing up. Jehovah's Witnesses are known for their high moral standards in keeping with Bible principles. The same people that say the JWs condone this immoral conduct are the same people that complain that JWs shun or expel the immoral people from the congregation to keep it safe. Obviously there is an ulterior motive to their complaints and lies.

Many lies were spread about Jesus as well. But even he said, if you don't believe what I say, believe what I do. That is, his works gave proof that he was from God. And he also said, "wisdom is proved righteous by its works."
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So, the Bible is just the bare bones of God's message?

No, the Bible contains the whole story. What we preach is usually brief....the bare bones of the Bible’s two fold message.

If emergency services knock on your door to warn you of an impending disaster, are they concentrating on giving you every detail at that time....or is it more important to give you the bare bones of the warning so that you can act on it? It starts with the bare bones in my experience. It started that way with me.....but I wanted to know more, so I made it my business to know more.

Free will means that we all have choices. If people do not find that our message resonates with them, then they have the choice to ignore it, just like some ignored the warning when Mt St Helens erupted some decades ago.
Those who heeded the warning and got out of the danger zone escaped with their lives but lost their homes in many cases. Those who stayed despite the warning, lost their lives and everything else.

The message will be preached in all the world, (Matthew 24:14) whether people respond to it or not....so that when the foretold “end” comes, who will be able to shake their fist at God for not telling them what he was going to do? The Bible says that people will be ‘beating their chest in lamentation’, knowing that they had the opportunity to save themselves, but threw it away in some false sense of security.

Whether people listen or not, we believe that nothing can stop what is coming.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Just want to add this here. Someone in this thread posted that JWs cover up child abuse.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/pub-jwban_201507_2_VIDEO

This bore bringing up. Jehovah's Witnesses are known for their high moral standards in keeping with Bible principles. The same people that say the JWs condone this immoral conduct are the same people that complain that JWs shun or expel the immoral people from the congregation to keep it safe. Obviously there is an ulterior motive to their complaints and lies.

Many lies were spread about Jesus as well. But even he said, if you don't believe what I say, believe what I do. That is, his works gave proof that he was from God. And he also said, "wisdom is proved righteous by its works."

They say everyone they disagree with cover up child abuse. Whether it's true or not it shouldn't be a weapon to discredit their theology. They both have their issues but neither the two shall cross
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
At the moment, we're being told to social distance so people can be safer. If that's a good idea or not, it's up for debate, but we're law abiding citizens and we're respecting the instructions. But since we're lucky to be in 2020, that doesn't make us unavailable. We happen to have the most translated website in the world with loads of information - written, audio and video - available to anyone with an internet connection. And for those who want a more personal contact, all it takes is fill the form on the website, leave an email or phone number and someone will get in touch with you. We also have phones and some people are still writing letters. Imagine the joy of receiving something other than advertisement or invoices in the post!
We might be low key, but we're very efficient :)

I can't see any connection between this situation and us not accepting blood transfusions. Making myself available to help people learn about the bible is a sign of my love for others. It means I want to do what I can to help them. Me not wanting a blood transfusion means I love God and want to obey his command, and has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else.

I didn't know you were JW. Anyway, couldn't you guys wear masks and/or shields to continue evangelizing door to door?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Thanks. Do new home owners contact JW to put their names on the do not call list?
Yes. Some people have telephoned the branch office in their land, to specifically inform the Witnesses, that they are not welcomed on their property.
Sometimes these properties may be whole complexes, and we have to find other means of sharing the message with those residents.
That's why our public, and informal witnessing - where we witness at the market; on public transportation, etc. is so important.
(Acts 17:17) So he began to reason in the synagogue with the Jews and the other people who worshiped God and every day in the marketplace with those who happened to be on hand.

Like blood transfusion, I was wondering where the limitations lie. If a loved one was dying and needed blood I'd give blood for the same intent as not going door to door if I had the virus. How are the two incidences different since they both (no door to door and transfusion) save lives?
Who determines that someone needs blood?
Many surgeons have already said, and demonstrated that no one needs blood, other than their own.
So the idea, or orthodox view that people need blood - from another person, is a personal view, and not a fact.
As life-giver, God determines how blood should or should not be used.
In his word the Bible, he clearly outlined his view on the use of blood.

I forgot to mention, another reason JWs would hold off going door to door, during the Covid19 situation.
They also have love for one another.
(1 Peter 2:17) . . .Honor men of all sorts, have love for the whole association of brothers, be in fear of God, honor the king.
Hence they want to protect their brothers from harm (contacting the virus).

You're welcomed.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
As the old saying goes..."there's more than one way to skin a cat". Face to face is the best way to present the message as there are nuances of speech and body language that contribute to any discussion, that is not possible with written communication although the bare bones of a subject can be transmitted that way.



Harm? What harm is done to someone who answers a doorbell or a knock when JW's are standing on their doorstep. We are not exactly terrorists you know....

But let me put it this way (as I have done before) if emergency services knock at your door to warn you of an impending disaster, do you object and want to throw them off your property? Would you be angry if they skipped your house because they thought you might not be interested in what they have to tell you?

It is not illegal to knock on someone's door....salesmen have been doing it for centuries, and until its made illegal, we will keep calling unless you tell us that you do not want us to call. That way we are absolved from guilt because we tried to warn you of God's intentions. (Ezekiel 3:18-19)



We have success no matter what avenue we choose to use....that is because it has the backing of God's spirit.
If people want the truth and are searching for it, God will allow them to find it, no matter what avenue it comes through.
I had an appointment with my natural therapist this week and that led to an extended conversation and now she wants to study the Bible. We never know where we will find interest in our message...but now more than ever people can see that the world has been turned on its ear with a small virus......they wonder where it is all going and if life can ever be the same again......we show them how it can get better than they ever imagined.
Loved that last paragraph.
God is the one who draws the person.
I think between the JWs here, we might have mentioned John 6:44 about three dozen times on these forums.

@Unveiled Artist Interestingly, there are people constantly seeking out JWs, to have a Bible study, so it does show, the heart is involved, therefore God is actively involved, as he is the one searching hearts.
(Jeremiah 17:10) I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, Examining the innermost thoughts. . .
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Yes. The question was getting at the comparison of saving lives by blood transfusion as well as not going door to door.

If one let's someone die without blood transfusion wouldn't that be the same with the virus if gods law is put over people in this case as well?

How are the two situations different?
For one thing, JWs seek medical help - the best kind - for the purpose of saving lives.
That's why a committee was formed to assist with the needs of health - emergency or otherwise.
So it is not accurate to say JWs let someone die.

Hence the comparison you made started with a false presumption .
Second, because we value life, we do not take unnecessary risks, or put our lives, or the lives of others in harms way.
Hence we stay at home, until relatively safe to get back to normal activity.

You must remember that we carry the Bible, and in some cases a book bag, and it can be quite a challenge for many, especially sometimes we forget, or do things unconsciously, which could be deadly.
All it takes is one mistake, and we may not be as fortunate as others.

Even the experts are not taking this situation lightly.
How much more so, people who place a high value on life, because of the God they serve.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I was thinking door to door was a necessity thing not an option.

Since the virus won't disappear, I wonder if JW would take that out. It may not seem like a problem for JW, but I don't think they are listening to the people who live on the property. I know some of our doctors offices started doing virtual visits indefinitely. I guess after awhile they figure it was more convenient.

I guess to understand what I'm saying, you'd have to understand how door-to-door is a very rude way to evangelize. It doesn't kill people like the virus and put people at risk of dying by not having blood transfusions, so I don't think you'd get it for you're not seeing the other side of the story with this type of evangelization. But what can I say.

I never got the blood transfusion though. It's one thing to not do it by personal preference and based on the health of the patient, but a whole 'nother to not do because of statistics and not based on the health and advice of the doctors. It's kind of like letting someone die because only 30% survived from X surgery. Most people would take the chance, but personal preference really decides that for most. I'm just surprised the transfusion thing it's a biblical issue.
I wonder what you think of this situation, Artist.
Say people awoke to a category five hurricane, that rapidly increased overnight. Things are flying all over the place, and the rain is pouring.
One person had promised a neighbor, that they would drive over in the morning (today) to fix a part of their roof.
Say the neighbor lost their life in the hurricane.
Would you say, the person let the neighbor die?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
1. If your face mask works, then you should be protected from me, even if I choose not to wear one. Why insist that I stay far away from you?

After all this time, people still don't get it.
You don't wear a mask to protect yourself. You wear one to protect other people.

You wear one to prevent that when you cough, breath, speak,... the virus that you might be infected with doesn't travel 2m away from you, or even further when it gets caught by a current.

A doctor or nurse that wears a mask when dealing with a weak patient, is not because they are afraid they'll catch whatever the patient has. They'll still wear one, for example, when working on a leukemia patient. Leukemia isn't contagious - it's a cancer. So why do they wear one, do you think?

Right... because the patient's immune system is a wreck and they wear a mask to prevent infecting that patient with something that might mean his death sentence.

It provides *some* protection to yourself, but really not that much. Most danger to yourself comes from your hands and face-touching when they are soiled. This is why disinfecting hands and washing them is such a big deal.

2. If face masks do not protect, then why must we wear one? Why breathe bad dusty air?

As just explained: you wear one to prevent infecting others, in case you yourself happen to be infected without knowing it (yet).

But fear. What people are really afraid of is not disease at all. It's that other people have let us down, and all of those feelings bubble to the surface. "No, I'm pretty sure I'm afraid of a disease." No, you're NOT. You're riled up into blocking conservative or liberal family members on Facebook well before this. You're staring at tablet screens well before this. You're separated into political cliques well before this. And an election year disease comes by and rather than questioning whether this is to keep you from the polls, most people ride the tide of what they are already feeling. Right after a impeachment failed (if you studied political science this wouldn't be a surprise), your world is uncertain "how could this happen" (seriously dude, study political science), and you don't trust anyone. Friends and family might have stood with Trump and gotten him elected, I need to stay far away from them, like 6 feet or so... what's this? A big scary disease with often no symptoms? Why anyone could have it! (Yeah that's one way of seeing it, how I see it is that if there are no symptoms, nobody could have it) All the more reason to hole myself up in my room.

A good hysteria uses repressed feelings as its fuel. The Salem Witch Hunts were mostly made of a tightly knit community, pettiness and suspicion, a fiery preacher, and some young girls peeved at other people. An Us vs Them mentality. This is always what creates hysteria.

But God doesn't want our fear. "Do not be afraid." It's actually mentioned enough in the Bible that you could read one passage every day for a year.
List Of 365 Fear Not Bible Verses | Believers Portal
Supposedly anyway. I didn't count.

I had trouble following this chaotic mess, but did you just suggest that Covid19 is an anti-Trump conspiracy?!
 
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