• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

LIBERAL ONLY: "The Election that Could Break America" -- Disturbing Atlantic Article

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Short Except from the Atlantic Magazine said:
Let us not hedge about one thing. Donald Trump may win or lose, but he will never concede. Not under any circumstance. Not during the Interregnum and not afterward. If compelled in the end to vacate his office, Trump will insist from exile, as long as he draws breath, that the contest was rigged.

Trump’s invincible commitment to this stance will be the most important fact about the coming Interregnum. It will deform the proceedings from beginning to end. We have not experienced anything like it before.

Maybe you hesitate. Is it a fact that if Trump loses, he will reject defeat, come what may? Do we know that? Technically, you feel obliged to point out, the proposition is framed in the future conditional, and prophecy is no man’s gift, and so forth. With all due respect, that is pettifoggery. We know this man. We cannot afford to pretend.

Trump’s behavior and declared intent leave no room to suppose that he will accept the public’s verdict if the vote is going against him. He lies prodigiously—to manipulate events, to secure advantage, to dodge accountability, and to ward off injury to his pride. An election produces the perfect distillate of all those motives.

The Atlantic article is profoundly disturbing in no small part because it predicts a post-election nightmare when Mr. Trump refuses to concede defeat. Unfortunately, considerable evidence points to that not only being the most likely future for America post-election, but also reveals that getting Mr. Trump out of office will most likely not be anywhere nearly as easy as calling in the military to escort him from the White House. To be blunt, Mr. Trump has the Constitutional and political means to prevent the election from being decided. Come January, when the next president is scheduled to take the oath of office, it seems likely, the issue of who won the election will still be in doubt.

The article is a long one, but if you want to know what the most likely outcome of this election will be, then it is a must read.

The Election That Could Break America
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Very interesting and disturbing article.

At this point, the controversy over mail-in ballots, although fabricated, needs to be addressed. The best way to do so is to avoid that method, if at all possible, and vote in person. Take advantage of early voting and make sure everyone around you does the same.

This year has been a mess for any number of reasons, and it tops four years of messes. We need to stand up and do this right and get the orange guy out of office.
 
Last edited:

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
How did half of America reach this drooling, brain dead, slack-jawed state? Otherwise there wouldn't have been a Pres. Trump in the first place. We went from "exceptional #1" to embarrassing laughing stock overnight.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
How did half of America reach this drooling, brain dead, slack-jawed state? Otherwise there wouldn't have been a Pres. Trump in the first place. We went from "exceptional #1" to embarrassing laughing stock overnight.

Not overnight. It has been a long decline with a precipitous drop when a critical mass was achieved. It has been obvious to me that things were going bad since the 1980's when it became clear that our educational system was being degraded. Once that happened, the knowledge of how our government *should* work declined. When the Fairness Doctrine for news organizations was eliminated, another step was taken in our polarization. That lead to the rise of Faux News. Then the internet blogs were able to circumvent the normal vetting process for news.

This has been anything other than a fast decline. It has been in the making for decades. Trump is only a symptom and not the disease, although he knows how to play the game to accelerate the decline.

Even if Biden gets elected and into office, the disease is still present. It is a cancer that has been active for way too long and I am not sure that we can excise it without killing the patient even if there is a remission for 4 years.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
As disturbing as the article may be, I can't help but wonder about the effect that the mere possibility of Trump's, or his minions', refusal to allow a peaceful transition of authority and power in the event of a Biden win in November on: Stock Market prices and property values?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
As disturbing as the article may be, I can't help but wonder about the effect that the mere possibility of Trump's, or his minions', refusal to allow a peaceful transition of authority and power in the event of a Biden win in November on: Stock Market prices and property values?

The markets will rebound someday, but the loss of life that a refusal will make to one or another degree likely -- those lives will be lost forever.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
A few things come to mind.

  1. We must all prepare for the elephant in the room: we will not know the results on election day. Regardless of the outcome, there will be a challenge to the results and an investigation will take place.
  2. The results must be accepted unless there is considerable evidence of foul play. This can go both ways. I hate the EC as much as the next person, but if Trump wins the EC but not the popular vote, those results are valid.
  3. Remain calm in the face of an overwhelming media presence that wants you to emotionally engage.
  4. The 20th Amendment is here to stay. To amend/repeal it would require a supermajority in both houses of Congress. The Republicans don't have it in either chamber. The other option is a call from a majority of the states, again, statistically unlikely. As a reminder of the Amendment:
The terms of the President and the Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January, and the terms of Senators and Representatives at noon on the 3d day of January, of the years in which such terms would have ended if this article had not been ratified; and the terms of their successors shall then begin.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
This is to me the most important part of that long article. I separated the paragraph and highlighted it to make it clearer:

  • If you are a voter, think about voting in person after all. More than half a million postal votes were rejected in this year’s primaries, even without Trump trying to suppress them.
  • If you are at relatively low risk for COVID-19, volunteer to work at the polls. If you know people who are open to reason, spread word that it is normal for the results to keep changing after Election Night.
  • If you manage news coverage, anticipate extraconstitutional measures, and position reporters and crews to respond to them.
  • If you are an election administrator, plan for contingencies you never had to imagine before.
  • If you are a mayor, consider how to deploy your police to ward off interlopers with bad intent.
  • If you are a law-enforcement officer, protect the freedom to vote.
  • If you are a legislator, choose not to participate in chicanery.
  • If you are a judge on the bench in a battleground state, refresh your acquaintance with election case law.
  • If you have a place in the military chain of command, remember your duty to turn aside unlawful orders.
  • If you are a civil servant, know that your country needs you more than ever to do the right thing when you’re asked to do otherwise.

Take agency. An election cannot be stolen unless the American people, at some level, acquiesce. One thing Brooks has been thinking about since her exercise came to an end is the power of peaceful protest on a grand scale. “We had players on both sides attempting to mobilize their supporters to turn out in large numbers, and we didn’t really have a good mechanism for deciding, did that make a difference? What kind of difference did that make?” she said. “It left some with some big questions about what if you had Orange Revolution–style mass protest sustained over weeks. What effects would that have?”
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
For me, the most abysmal part of this story is that only one Republican -- Mitt Romney -- has so far come out and directly said that any attempt to thwart the election results would be totally wrong. The rest are silent. What has happened to conservatives in the US?
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
This is to me the most important part of that long article. I separated the paragraph and highlighted it to make it clearer:

  • If you are a voter, think about voting in person after all. More than half a million postal votes were rejected in this year’s primaries, even without Trump trying to suppress them.
  • If you are at relatively low risk for COVID-19, volunteer to work at the polls. If you know people who are open to reason, spread word that it is normal for the results to keep changing after Election Night.
  • If you manage news coverage, anticipate extraconstitutional measures, and position reporters and crews to respond to them.
  • If you are an election administrator, plan for contingencies you never had to imagine before.
  • If you are a mayor, consider how to deploy your police to ward off interlopers with bad intent.
  • If you are a law-enforcement officer, protect the freedom to vote.
  • If you are a legislator, choose not to participate in chicanery.
  • If you are a judge on the bench in a battleground state, refresh your acquaintance with election case law.
  • If you have a place in the military chain of command, remember your duty to turn aside unlawful orders.
  • If you are a civil servant, know that your country needs you more than ever to do the right thing when you’re asked to do otherwise.

Take agency. An election cannot be stolen unless the American people, at some level, acquiesce. One thing Brooks has been thinking about since her exercise came to an end is the power of peaceful protest on a grand scale. “We had players on both sides attempting to mobilize their supporters to turn out in large numbers, and we didn’t really have a good mechanism for deciding, did that make a difference? What kind of difference did that make?” she said. “It left some with some big questions about what if you had Orange Revolution–style mass protest sustained over weeks. What effects would that have?”
Forgive my ignorance, or perhaps my naivety but mail in votes weren’t counted? How is that possible?
(Yeah I know corruption or whatever.) But surely that can’t be legal in a democratic country?
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Forgive my ignorance, or perhaps my naivety but mail in votes weren’t counted? How is that possible?
(Yeah I know corruption or whatever.) But surely that can’t be legal in a democratic country?

Happens here too, mate, albeit for different reasons or at a different scale.
Fill in a voting slip unclearly, incorrectly, arrives late, etc.
Lots of reasons.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Forgive my ignorance, or perhaps my naivety but mail in votes weren’t counted? How is that possible?
(Yeah I know corruption or whatever.) But surely that can’t be legal in a democratic country?

Colorado, where I live, counts almost all mail-in ballots except spoiled ones. But I recently read we are considered by some authorities to be the best state in the nation at managing mail-in voting. Here in Colorado, you can track your ballot on the internet from start to end of its journey through the mails and processing by the county clerk. You know exactly where it is in the system, and you know what its status is.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
They've been corrupted by the billionaire class in league with the Evangelical leadership. Add to that, they've suffered a brains and integrity drain for decades as their brightest and most reputable people have left the Party due to its corruption.

Question from ignorance. Apart from corruption (which I can research myself) there appears to be a general anti-intellectualism present in the party...or at least, in the way they present to their base.
Has that impacted?
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Happens here too, mate, albeit for different reasons or at a different scale.
Fill in a voting slip unclearly, incorrectly, arrives late, etc.
Lots of reasons.
Oh well that makes sense. I remember my first time voting the lady at the booth gave me a very in-depth lecture about filling out the slip correctly lol.
I dunno, maybe her kids screwed up their votes or something :shrug:
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh well that makes sense. I remember my first time voting the lady at the booth gave me a very in-depth lecture about filling out the slip correctly lol.
I dunno, maybe her kids screwed up their votes or something :shrug:

You get those booth assistants who are sure they're the only thing standing between democracy and complete chaos...lol

I've thrown in blank slips on two occasions I can remember, when key candidates screwed the pooch quite late in the piece and I didn't feel like I could vote for them, but hadn't done enough investigation of independents, etc, to toss them my vote.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
You get those booth assistants who are sure they're the only thing standing between democracy and complete chaos...lol
Indeed. I remember making the mistake of going with one of my hungover uni mates once. Never again!!

I've thrown in blank slips on two occasions I can remember, when key candidates screwed the pooch quite late in the piece and I didn't feel like I could vote for them, but hadn't done enough investigation of independents, etc, to toss them my vote.
That’s fair enough. I once scrawled across my paper “to hell with you all.” (Well that’s the polite version lol)
Gotta love anonymity lol
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Question from ignorance. Apart from corruption (which I can research myself) there appears to be a general anti-intellectualism present in the party...or at least, in the way they present to their base.
Has that impacted?

Perhaps the anti-intellectualism has driven some of the brighter people from the Party. I've never seen a study on it.

Anti-intellectualism, as you know, has deep roots in American politics, religion, and culture -- ever since the early 1800s, at the least. It seems to have roots in the Cavalier culture from England that mainly settled and shaped the American South, but Tocqueville felt it was also a natural outgrowth of democracy itself. It's infection of the Republican Party is a more or less recent development -- since the 1970s. Prior to that, the Republicans were the 'intellectual party' and the Democrats were the 'anti-intellectual party'. Apparently, it arrived in the Republican Party via the Evangelicals. It might be noted that the Evangelicals -- in so far as they are related to the Fundamentalists -- got their start as an explicitly anti-intellectual movement. The intellectuals the Fundamentalists were reacting to were the German philologists of the late 1700s and early 1800s. The philologists were busy putting their scholarly tools to the task of analyzing the Bible. They were making discovery after discovery that did not jive well with the King James translation, nor with much of the theology that had been based on the translation. Naturally, humans being humans, one of the responses to those discoveries was to turn anti-intellectual.

Does any of that help?
 
Top