Slavery

[nPeace]

Of course I hate what JWs keep preaching in this thread. It's blurring the lines between rape and consensual sex. This is what makes people shocked here among other things.
Rape is rape. Consensual sex is consensual sex.

Don't abuse Jesus' holy name to spread your own JW teachings about rape. Rape is rape ... and this is what you need to set straight, I think.

We can discuss it, if you like, because I don't get where you are seeing that I am saying other than what the Bible say, except where I think it's all in your mind. Not what I said.

In answering your question, rape cannot involve consent, I think.

Okay, So you think the Government has misused the word, when they use the term 'statutory rape'.
Also, you do not think that women consent in any way, when they say no, but show otherwise, or are indecisive, or say yes, and then no.

the passage explicitely says "she did not scream": However, this doesn't transform this verse into a rape story or a rule covering rape.
There are all sorts of sex during which the woman does not scream.

Dear fellow reader, let me explain why this is so important a passage: Jehova Witnesses, as can be seen in this thread, try to use Deuteronomy 22:24 in an attempt to "show" that there is no rape without screaming. But Deuteronomy 22:24, at least its Hebrew version, does not mention rape. Their argument is moot, as I see it.
...

The context says these passages in Deuteronomy 22,23-27 deals with rape. You see it different. I don't think any amount of preaching - which I am not doing, nor about to do - will change your mind. That's your belief.

well, no reader could have come up with the idea that you did NOT agree with the representation of your opinion in #155.
If you did not agree, you could have made that clearer.

no, I mean this hypothesis written by your fellow JW (see #155):

"@nPeace has already explained that if the attack took place in a city, someone would have heard her scream,"
so there it is: no scream no rape - as a hypothesis.

Now you even state clearly:

Post #155
I did explained... just like polygamy, which God allowed, but never approved, and which he no longer put up with many many years after.
The common culture of war, which he allowed his people to engage in, until many years after... etc. etc.

This one?
Remember, you hypothesized 'no scream no rape'. That's your idea. It is not what is written. It is not what I said.
i agree 100% with what is written there. Why do you think there is a problem?
Let's clear this up once and for all.
Did I say no scream no rape?

ah.

So, here you're contradicting yourself. See above.

How did I contradict myself? See above.

So, it's not lack of humbleness here if I read your posts as they are written. I just don't assume hidden messages that noone can read, that's all.

Yes, you admitted you assumed it, by saying it was your hypothesis.

this is getting personal. Stop this.

Personal? If anything, you made it personal, my friend. Let's deal with it.
Do you think it fair you can say what you like about a person, but they can't say anything about you. (which I didn't say, but simply asked you questions)? How is that fair?
If you really want to talk about personal, we can do that here too. Let's start with this one, since it's closer... "Don't abuse Jesus' holy name to spread your own JW teachings about rape." That's not personal?
How is this...
It's like someone so determined to put their own words, or thoughts in someone's mouth, in order to create an argument they think will give them some sort of satisfaction.
What would you get out of that Thomas, other than a big fat ego? What will you feed it with? Surely there would be no room for God's word, or spirit.
...any more personal?

I always attempt to leave room for God.
I did not put my own words, or thoughts in your mouth.
I don't think that I lost the case.
I did not commit perjury.
I wouldn't be thrown out by "any proper judge".
And I don't believe that a woman who does not put up a fight under no threat of harm, is necessarily raped without consent.
I didn't claim to "know so much" on this specific Bible verse.
I never claimed or implied that rape does need to involve beating, and vicious manhandling. So I wasn't proven wrong here, I think.

Thomas

EDITED

Anyone can go to court and say all of that. What does the evidence reveal though?
Are you innocent of not putting words and thoughts in my mouth? Question : (and mind you, the judge will have you sworn in. Then he or she will say to you, "Just answer Yes or No. Do not volunteer any information except specifically asked for such. Do you understand?" Hopefully, you will answer, "Yes, Your Honor." ) Did you hear nPeace say 'no scream no rape' Or did you hear nPeace's fellow believer say 'no scream no rape'?

 

[nPeace]

You're just repeating yourself now and throwing in silly threats about being damned. Is that supposed to be scary? FYI, religious threats of damnation don't work on people who don't share your religion. We just think it's offensive and stupid.

Why do you people feel so threatened by everything in opposition to your stance? It's as though your own position causes you to jump out of your own skin, so that one just has to say something whether from the Bible, or not, and you feel threatened.
That should tell you something.
It's like a man that's so miserable on the inside the slightest sound gets on his nerves. Or a man who jumps at his own shadow. LOL.
No one is threatening you mate. Relax. Breathe. Breathe. LOL.

 

[nPeace]

Oh, I disagree.

This is just more victim blaming and making excuses for rapists.
Oh, the poor rapist couldn't help himself because he saw some buttocks and lost control of himself.

If this is Biblical morality, I want nothing to do with it. Secular morality is superior to this antiquated and dangerous way of thinking.

Just shows how you easily miss what we are saying.
The rapist does not lose control. The rapist has already lost control - probably doesn't know that exists (I am not talking about a one off situation) The rapist is obsessed with what they are already thirsting for. The rapist looks for, and often doesn't have to look for, but it's shoved in his face, by those willing to expose them selves.
All the rapist needs, is the opportunity.
You are clearly missing the point, but I understand. It's an emotional thing.

 

[nPeace]

As stated, I'm responding to Deeje's own words. Words that she claims are supported by the Bible. Maybe you need to read her words more carefully.

Hell yes, I have strong emotions about rape. I also have strong emotions about people trying to blame rape victims for being raped. Crazy, I know.

Dear me, indeed.

No one here is trying to blame rape victims for being raped. I don't think you understand what is being said.
It seems a common thing though, I noticed.

 

[nPeace]

Oh, okay. So we should still be practicing slavery then.

We? Let's consider that.
What do you think we are doing when we get up every morning, according to the time allotted for work hours, by our boss - interesting adjustment - and we have to work for a certain amount of hours, allotted by our boss, in order to put food on the table, and a roof over our heads?
Is it not time to be awake from sleep, and stop dreaming?
What do you think we are doing, when we serve God and Christ? Is there an alarm clock around here. Some people are in a deep sleep.
What do you think you are doing when choose not to serve God? Of course, I don't expect you could answer that.

God's view on slavery was never what was implemented by man.
The term slave is actually man made, so it did not originate with God.
Offering oneself willingly in behalf of other, is actually God's view. He comes first in being served though, because he is the source of life, and the giver, of every good and perfect gift... according to the Bible.
I am a willing slave of God, and our master, Christ. They are not like the masters, or the modern term bossed, that demand you work, at their time, and most of whom only care that your labor makes them fat... or fatter.

Thus, that is, and was, and will always be God's view.
He allowed the slavery that exists through man, to continue. However, just as he ended slavery ammong his people - the Israelites, and eventually slavery of captives also ended, God will end all slavery existing today, because he did not institute them.
Servitude, another term of man, will continue, because that is the kind of slavery, if you will, that God approve. No one is driven, but willing service is given.

It is like a man saying, I really love this man, and I want to offer services to him. because he is a good man, and deserves it.
How does that works...? As it did in the past.
If I have a skill, I will offer my services to those who don't have that skill, and the person will offer their skill to others.. because they want to.
Is that not a good view to have?
That's God's view.

I've read the Bible. That's how I know the God talked about in it condones slavery. Where else would I get it from? The same place where a bunch of pro-slavery Americans got their justifications for keeping the slave trade alive.

No one here has denied that God did not allow things he did not approve... for a time.
People who claim to get things from the Bible, are not always truthful. Yet you believe them, and doubt the Bible. Hmm.

No. I would expect that a supreme ruler of the universe that supposedly had men write down his thoughts about the way we're supposed to behave, would at least be consistent. I would expect said deity's moral pronouncements to be universal and timeless. What I wouldn't expect would be this same deity just letting human beings do what they want to do without bothering to tell them that certain behaviours and practices are immoral; like slavery. This same god certainly took a lot of time discussing the immorality of wearing clothing of mixed fabrics or eating shellfish or talking back to one's parents, but couldn't take the time to be clear and state that slavery is wrong?
Come on.


?

I thought you read the Bible though.
From what I have read, God did tell his people that something was not a good practice, and he did stop them, but as a parent, do you let your children learn lessons from what they experience for themselves, rather that state rule after rule, after rule? How might they view you?
If you do help or have helped your children to learn things for themselves, as millions of wise parents do, I commend you.
That's exactly what the Bible says God does.

 

[night912]

Have you not read my posts?

Have you not read my post about me having read the bible?

Like you, I don't see the need to repeat what I have already written.

Don't worry, you won't be repeating yourself.

I am truly sorry if you missed those posts, but I am not to blame for that, am I?
Please be sure to follow the discussion, if you are truly interested in what you are asking here.

Sorry, but blaming me because you haven't given the narrative of slavery in the bible, whether intentionally or out of ignorance, does not mean that I didn't read your posts.

If I wasn't following the discussion, then I would have never known that nPeace agrees with me that God did condone slavery.

I clearly gave the narrative for the slavery in Israel, from the Bible, and in all cases, I quoted many scriptures.
It should not be hard to find the posts of any user, in a thread. The search engine is your friend.

No you didn't. I agree, it's not hard to find posts of any user. So check out post #110 and #114. The search engine is my friend. And my friend showed me your denial.

So please, give a clear and honest narrative of slavery in the bible regarding Israel.

 

[YoursTrue]

Oh, I disagree.

This is just more victim blaming and making excuses for rapists.
Oh, the poor rapist couldn't help himself because he saw some buttocks and lost control of himself.

If this is Biblical morality, I want nothing to do with it. Secular morality is superior to this antiquated and dangerous way of thinking.

Let me put it this way: now that I know what the Bible says about rape and/or fornication and/or adultery, etc., I (1) wouldn't put myself in a position where it would be easy to attack me sexually, (2) I would fight bloody murder, tooth and nail and anything else I could get my hands on if someone attempted to rape me.

 

[YoursTrue]

We? Let's consider that.
What do you think we are doing when we get up every morning, according to the time allotted for work hours, by our boss - interesting adjustment - and we have to work for a certain amount of hours, allotted by our boss, in order to put food on the table, and a roof over our heads?
Is it not time to be awake from sleep, and stop dreaming?
What do you think we are doing, when we serve God and Christ? Is there an alarm clock around here. Some people are in a deep sleep.
What do you think you are doing when choose not to serve God? Of course, I don't expect you could answer that.

God's view on slavery was never what was implemented by man.
The term slave is actually man made, so it did not originate with God.
Offering oneself willingly in behalf of other, is actually God's view. He comes first in being served though, because he is the source of life, and the giver, of every good and perfect gift... according to the Bible.
I am a willing slave of God, and our master, Christ. They are not like the masters, or the modern term bossed, that demand you work, at their time, and most of whom only care that your labor makes them fat... or fatter.

Thus, that is, and was, and will always be God's view.
He allowed the slavery that exists through man, to continue. However, just as he ended slavery ammong his people - the Israelites, and eventually slavery of captives also ended, God will end all slavery existing today, because he did not institute them.
Servitude, another term of man, will continue, because that is the kind of slavery, if you will, that God approve. No one is driven, but willing service is given.

It is like a man saying, I really love this man, and I want to offer services to him. because he is a good man, and deserves it.
How does that works...? As it did in the past.
If I have a skill, I will offer my services to those who don't have that skill, and the person will offer their skill to others.. because they want to.
Is that not a good view to have?
That's God's view.


No one here has denied that God did not allow things he did not approve... for a time.
People who claim to get things from the Bible, are not always truthful. Yet you believe them, and doubt the Bible. Hmm.


I thought you read the Bible though.
From what I have read, God did tell his people that something was not a good practice, and he did stop them, but as a parent, do you let your children learn lessons from what they experience for themselves, rather that state rule after rule, after rule? How might they view you?
If you do help or have helped your children to learn things for themselves, as millions of wise parents do, I commend you.
That's exactly what the Bible says God does.

It's interesting, I was just reading about the money tycoons of the world (CEO's) and how it appeared to the author the huge difference between their salaries and the "workers." When he was younger, the author did not realize just how awful the big companies and profit-making were. And -- the money tycoons were far more interested in making a profit than caring about the environment. Funny, isn't it, how it works? Funny in a sad, pathetic, horrible way.

 

[Deeje]

no, speaking for myself... I only want the woman if she agrees.
I'm not a potential rapist.

Sometimes I used to receive these sorts of glances... but the moment the women found out how much money I earn, they changed their mind. This is how it used to be up to the present day.
They are entitled to change their minds.
I only want a woman when she wants me, too, of course.

Thomas - non Jehova Witness

Wait a minute.....you identify as a "Christian" and yet openly admit to being a fornicator? Really?

"Fornication" comes from the Greek por·neiʹa, (from which we get the word 'pornography') a general term for all unlawful sexual intercourse. It includes adultery, prostitution, sexual relations between unmarried individuals, homosexuality, and bestiality. (Acts 15:29)

Ephesians 5:3-5...
"Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. 4 Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. 5 You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world." ((NLT)

And I seem to remember you talking about the reputation of Christians being brought into question......what do you think you just did?

 

[Father Heathen]

So you think the current moral standards in the world are better?...and make people's lives happier and more meaningful?

Yes. Vastly so.

What moral compass exists today?

Reason and compassion.

I should perhaps point out the suicide rate among our youth who have the physical maturity to engage in sex but not the emotional or mental maturity to manage relationships.
Most have no desire for a relationship anyway.....they just want to copulate. Its hardly a good way to live and pass on good good behavior patterns to the children...whoever their fathers might be....

People can be educated to make responsible, rational desisions. No spooky superstition needed.

The fabric of society is held together in strong family relationships.....which are now disappearing.

Another thing that doesn't necessitate the ancient fables of dead goatherders.

The most powerful empire on earth fell because they failed to value the family and allowed decadence and immorality to rule them......I can see its happening again.

Nope. Rome began its decline when it adopted Christianity, followed by the church's schism.

Calling the world "civilized" is hardly backed up by the outcomes of their behavior. Its becoming more and more uncivilized.

It only appears that way because we live in the information age.

Give me the Bible's standards any day. You can choose whatever standards you like.....makes no difference to me.
IMO all humans have done is swap one kind of slavery for another.....

At the end of the day rape/slave apologists are trash.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Oh, I disagree.

This is just more victim blaming and making excuses for rapists.
Oh, the poor rapist couldn't help himself because he saw some buttocks and lost control of himself.

Who's "making excuses"?!?! And there's no "poor rapist"!

Stop misapplying what we're saying.

Rape is wrong! Rapists should be killed!

If this is Biblical morality, I want nothing to do with it. Secular morality is superior to this antiquated and dangerous way of thinking.

Why do you always focus & harp on the Hebrew Scriptures, when denigrating Biblical morality?! The Laws were designed to govern a society in ancient times.

How about quote from Colossians 3 12-14? (Of course, you might not like 5-11, touching on avoiding sexual immorality.) Or the counsel found in Ephesians 4:25-32? Or Ephesians 5:28-33? Or James 1 19,26,27?
This is proper morality! This is actually worship that God accepts!

 

[YoursTrue]

Who's "making excuses"?!?! And there's no "poor rapist"!

Stop misapplying what we're saying.

Rape is wrong! Rapists should be killed!


Why do you always focus & harp on the Hebrew Scriptures, when denigrating Biblical morality?! The Laws were designed to govern a society in ancient times.

How about quote from Colossians 3 12-14? (Of course, you might not like 5-11, touching on avoiding sexual immorality.) Or the counsel found in Ephesians 4:25-32? Or Ephesians 5:28-33? Or James 1 19,26,27?
This is proper morality! This is actually worship that God accepts!

I was thinking the same thing about history and cultural differences. The nations branched off from tribes or family relationships. They usually warred over land rights. Taking of slaves and women was not unusual. There are and were children working in factories today in "civilized" nations. That's just for starters.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes. Vastly so.


Reason and compassion.


People can be educated to make responsible, rational desisions. No spooky superstition needed.


Another thing that doesn't necessitate the ancient fables of dead goatherders.


Nope. Rome began its decline when it adopted Christianity, followed by the church's schism.


It only appears that way because we live in the information age.

At the end of the day rape/slave apologists are trash.

You are aware of child brides? And underage children in virtual slave factories manufacturing clothes and items you may be buying?

 

[thomas t]

Remember, you hypothesized 'no scream no rape'. That's your idea.

no. This was @Deeje, she wrote:

@nPeace has already explained that if the attack took place in a city, someone would have heard her scream,

There it is the hypothesis: no scream - no rape. I referred to that one.
Later, you admitted (see #199) "as far as I know, I agree with my fellow JW" - Deeje, in this case.
So, you contradicted yourself when you said that you "did not say that rape without any screaming involved is no rape" (also in #199).

Also, you do not think that women consent in any way, when they say no, but show otherwise, or are indecisive, or say yes, and then no.

when they say no, it's no. Regardless of what they show or what you think they show. Even if before they said yes.
statutory rape involves minors, that's different. No, I don't think the government misused this term.

The context says these passages in Deuteronomy 22,23-27 deals with rape.

verse 27 deals with rape. It is presumption on your side that verse 24 also deals with rape.
The situations outlined in verse 24 and verse 27 are different.

(and mind you, the judge will have you sworn in. Then he or she will say to you, "Just answer Yes or No. Do not volunteer any information except specifically asked for such. Do you understand?" Hopefully, you will answer, "Yes, Your Honor." )

These are your fantasies. Please don't show that you are content seeing me before the judge. This is impolite, I think.

You talked about my "big fat ego", as you put it. This was getting personal. Stop it.
My qoute "Don't abuse Jesus' holy name to spread your own JW teachings about rape." isn't personal, in contrast, because it refers to an action - as opposed to the person.

I am not your friend. Don't call me "my friend", please.
I did not put words or thoughts in your mouth.
I never said "no scream no rape" was my hypothesis. I didn't admit I assumed it. Don't put words in my mouth here.


@Deeje, I do not admit to being a fornicator, you asked in #249. Don't explain me anything if I don't ask you to do so, please.

EDITED (in blue colour)

 

[YoursTrue]

Have you not read my post about me having read the bible?


Don't worry, you won't be repeating yourself.


Sorry, but blaming me because you haven't given the narrative of slavery in the bible, whether intentionally or out of ignorance, does not mean that I didn't read your posts.

If I wasn't following the discussion, then I would have never known that nPeace agrees with me that God did condone slavery.


No you didn't. I agree, it's not hard to find posts of any user. So check out post #110 and #114. The search engine is my friend. And my friend showed me your denial.

So please, give a clear and honest narrative of slavery in the bible regarding Israel.

Similarly though, God allowed men to divorce their wives for reasons other than adultery, also take more than one wife until Jesus made it clear that was not God's original intention. We're all slaves in various ways. Some slave "owners" are more compassionate than others. This all goes back to the beginning of mankind where two persons were created by God. And after He expelled them from the Garden of Eden, their first son killed his brother. God did not stop him from murdering Abel. I'll leave it there for now. He allowed it. Let's take this down to modern times, and legal or non-legal murder. Or slavery. Let's also imagine there could be a life without slavery in some sort or another. Would that be possible?

 

[Deeje]

@Deeje, I do not admit to being a fornicator, you asked in #249. Don't explain me anything if I don't ask you to do so, please.

By your own admission you did. Christians cannot be fornicators....you wouldn't be a rapist, but fornication is OK according to you?

....your arguments are pedantic and ridiculous. You can dish it out, but you can't see what a complete hypocrite you are. I am putting you on ignore. Good bye Thomas....

 

[thomas t]

By your own admission you did.

Actually, I did not. I didn't admit to it.

My arguments are not pedantic and ridiculous.
There. That was easy.

You can dish it out, but you can't see what a complete hypocrite you are.

This is getting personal.
I'm not a hypocrite.

 

[Father Heathen]

You are aware of child brides? And underage children in virtual slave factories manufacturing clothes and items you may be buying?

Of course. There are plenty of wrongs that still need righted. Your point?

 

[YoursTrue]

Of course. There are plenty of wrongs that still need righted. Your point?

God permits certain inequities because he is not going to change everyone to perfection right now. Furthermore no matter how much good a person may do, he's not going to change the whole world. The world has been going around for many centuries. Wars have been happening until the present time, even between socalled Christian countries. The reality is that treaties were based on economic agreement. Adam chose death after he knew his partner would die. This is what the human race is faced with. Only a sweeping change by God can correct it.

 

[Father Heathen]

God permits certain inequities because he is not going to change everyone to perfection right now. Furthermore no matter how much good a person may do, he's not going to change the whole world. The world has been going around for many centuries. Wars have been happening until the present time, even between socalled Christian countries. The reality is that treaties were based on economic agreement. Adam chose death after he knew his partner would die. This is what the human race is faced with. Only a sweeping change by God can correct it.

Perfection is impossible but being a little better tomorrow than what we were yesterday is always possible.