• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Do non believers EXPECT there must be someone in certain circumstances ?

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Scenario: somebody did something very very wrong with you without any reason. You being the victim went to the court for justice, but, failed to provide any solid evidence/proofs to court to punish that accused. Person exonerated from the court.

No God exist at all. Fine.

But, taking the above scenario into consideration, do non-believers EXPECT that there must be someone to provide them justice ?

No (if you're talking about god). We don't expect god to come in to provide them justice. In my opinion, I disagree any person "deserves" justice at all. We learn from the consequences but why eat popcorn and watch them hang from a tree just because they are consequenced for their actions. So, no.

Someone as in "anyone" (since you didn't provide a who)? No. If I had a attorney, things would probably go smoother. I don't expect one to show up, though. If I don't have evidence then there's nothing much I can do. If anything, that's like saying someone hurt me but I don't have a bruise to show it. So, I wouldn't expect anything from an action I cannot prove happened.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Scenario: somebody did something very very wrong with you without any reason. You being the victim went to the court for justice, but, failed to provide any solid evidence/proofs to court to punish that accused. Person exonerated from the court.

No God exist at all. Fine.

But, taking the above scenario into consideration, do non-believers EXPECT that there must be someone to provide them justice ?
Wouldn't the same scenario be true for a believer?

You need evidence to get a prosecution; no evidence = not much chance of prosecution
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Okay, then let me ask this way.

Do non-believers EXPECT that there must be someone to provide them justice ?

The simple answer is no.

We *expect* our criminal justice system to do all it can to achieve justice. But we also know that any system will have failures.

We strive to promote justice, but don't *expect* that it will happen without our effort. And, unfortunately, there will be cases where it doesn't happen. When that happens and we detect it, we try to modify the system to work better the next time.

Past that, your question seems very strange. I don't *expect* anyone to make me happy, to give justice, to provide food, or any number of other things. In fact, I *expect* for us fallible humans to botch the job frequently, but still to try.

And if we fail, there is no further court of appeal.
 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
Okay, then let me ask this way.

Do non-believers EXPECT that there must be someone to provide them justice ?
Yes: the legal system.
Civilization attempts to provide a legal system. The legal system attempts to provide justice. Sometimes they fail in their efforts.

However, concept of a “God” has never been seen to provide either, :confused: except for rare instances of luck (karma). But even then, it is usually due ro the criminal’s sheer stupidity and/or his flouting of what it means to be civilized.
 

chinu

chinu
The simple answer is no.

We *expect* our criminal justice system to do all it can to achieve justice. But we also know that any system will have failures.

We strive to promote justice, but don't *expect* that it will happen without our effort. And, unfortunately, there will be cases where it doesn't happen. When that happens and we detect it, we try to modify the system to work better the next time.

Past that, your question seems very strange. I don't *expect* anyone to make me happy, to give justice, to provide food, or any number of other things. In fact, I *expect* for us fallible humans to botch the job frequently, but still to try.

And if we fail, there is no further court of appeal.
:) Can non believers go to any extent to prove the non existence of God ?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
:) Can non believers go to any extent to prove the non existence of God ?

Huh? I answered your question. I don't *expect* justice. I *work* for it. As you pointed out, the question of the existence of a deity is irrelevant to this.

In that regard, the burden of proof is on the one making the existence claim, not those unconvinced of that existence.

In other words, it is the role of the believers to prove the existence, not of the unbelievers to prove non-existence.
 

chinu

chinu
Huh? I answered your question. I don't *expect* justice. I *work* for it. As you pointed out, the question of the existence of a deity is irrelevant to this.

In that regard, the burden of proof is on the one making the existence claim, not those unconvinced of that existence.

In other words, it is the role of the believers to prove the existence, not of the unbelievers to prove non-existence.
I don't know what made me to point that out. I am myself so confused why I did that.

Can you guess what wrong happened with me ? :)
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Scenario: somebody did something very very wrong with you without any reason. You being the victim went to the court for justice, but, failed to provide any solid evidence/proofs to court to punish that accused. Person exonerated from the court.

No God exist at all. Fine.

But, taking the above scenario into consideration, do non-believers EXPECT that there must be someone to provide them justice ?

No, selfish logic can cut both ways to justify the existence and non-existence of God(s)
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Scenario: somebody did something very very wrong with you without any reason. You being the victim went to the court for justice, but, failed to provide any solid evidence/proofs to court to punish that accused. Person exonerated from the court.

No God exist at all. Fine.

But, taking the above scenario into consideration, do non-believers EXPECT that there must be someone to provide them justice ?
For me, personally, not at all. The only "justice" of the kind you're speaking of that I would expect them to come up against (and specifically in the situation where the person got away with it and the system "failed" me) is a sort of take on "karma" - but only in the sense that, at some point, their misdeeds and willingness to engage in misdeeds and crimes will get them caught, or they will mess with someone who is able to get the better of them in the situation - maybe someone who has a gun and a non-peaceful disposition who shoots them dead on the spot, or beats the crap out of them, etc. Live by the sword, die by the sword, and all that. But that is really the only sort of vague "expectation" I might have given the scenario you set forth in the OP.
 
Last edited:

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
For me, personally, not at all. The only "justice" of the kind you're speaking of that I would expect them to come up against (and specifically in the situation where the person got away with it and the system "failed" me) is a sort of take on "karma" - but only in the sense that, at some point, their misdeeds and willingness to engage in misdeeds and crimes will get them caught, or they will mess with someone who is able to get the better of them in the situation - maybe someone who has a gun and a non-peaceful disposition who shoots them dead on the spot, or beats the crap out of them, etc. Live by the sword, die by the sword, and all that. But that is really the only sort of vague "expectation" I might have given the scenario you set forth in the OP.
Karma works, at least in the place where I live, in 1 particular case;)

There is a narcissistic woman who terrorizes the neighborhood. Every ca. 10 years they beat the crap out of her, because police does nothing (sometimes Law protects the villain too much). Last time the police said something like "you handle it yourself, we've had it with this woman", when the neighbors complained, they did not wait long for this "police gift". I just saw Charles Bronson film...police told him the same;), seems to work sometimes.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Scenario: somebody did something very very wrong with you without any reason. You being the victim went to the court for justice, but, failed to provide any solid evidence/proofs to court to punish that accused. Person exonerated from the court.

No God exist at all. Fine.

But, taking the above scenario into consideration, do non-believers EXPECT that there must be someone to provide them justice ?

No.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
But, the word avoid and accident doesn't sounds appropriate together. Accident means accident, its something we were NOT really aware of, and it happened.


Yes this correct.


Of course, this is an accident.

But, suppose a case where A & B are lovers. and C murdered B because don't want to see them together. This is NOT an accident. Does it ?
No chinu..... That is a wicked action.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
a function of religion seems to be to produce brother's keepers
self-appointed by a sense of duty and obligation [guilt]
to play hall monitor in the school of life
to curry favor with the principal....curious effect.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Scenario: somebody did something very very wrong with you without any reason. You being the victim went to the court for justice, but, failed to provide any solid evidence/proofs to court to punish that accused. Person exonerated from the court.

No God exist at all. Fine.

But, taking the above scenario into consideration, do non-believers EXPECT that there must be someone to provide them justice ?
Of course not.

do believers? If yes, why do you pay taxes for police, a judicial system and stuff like that? It must be totally superflous, from your point of view.

ciao

- viole
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
But, suppose a case where A & B are lovers. and C murdered B because don't want to see them together. This is NOT an accident. Does it ?
Reading your posts, I get the impression that what you mean by "justice" is vengeance. I consider that an instinctive throw back to our primitive past. I think rehabilitation and restoration are far better forms of "justice".

Suppose your scenario happened. And the judge could both fix B(bring them back) and also fix C(explain why murder is a bad thing, in a way that truly changes them permanently). Wouldn't that be better than just murdering C, to give A vengeance? I think it would.

Humans are pitifully limited, we can't do any of those things. Almighty God, however, can do them. In fact, God could have prevented all of this from happening in the first place by Creating better humans.

There is no God who cares that much. That's a demonstrable fact. Whether there's any God at all remains a question.
Tom
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Scenario: somebody did something very very wrong with you without any reason. You being the victim went to the court for justice, but, failed to provide any solid evidence/proofs to court to punish that accused. Person exonerated from the court.

No God exist at all. Fine.

But, taking the above scenario into consideration, do non-believers EXPECT that there must be someone to provide them justice ?
Your question seems to assume that justice is a single thing, so that a just outcome is always possible.

Sure, winners are grinners most of the time, but it's not all that rare for both sides to be furious at the outcome. In divorce courts, it happens all the time, but even in commerce neither side may get what it wanted.

And no, I don't think the world contains any more justice than we humans bring to it. Still, and however imperfectly, that's a lot lot better than nothing.
 
Top