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Sin and Repentance

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
What does this even mean?

It means what the Rambam wrote in the Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Melachim

אף ישוע הנוצרי שדימה שיהיה משיח, ונהרג בבית דין--כבר נתנבא בו דנייאל, שנאמר "ובני פריצי עמך, יינשאו להעמיד חזון--ונכשלו" (דנייאל יא,יד). וכי יש מכשול גדול מזה: שכל הנביאים דיברו שהמשיח גואל ישראל ומושיעם, ומקבץ נדחיהם ומחזק מצוותן; וזה גרם לאבד ישראל בחרב, ולפזר שאריתם ולהשפילם, ולהחליף התורה, ולהטעות רוב העולם לעבוד אלוה מבלעדי ה'
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
It means that he could trace his lineage back to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And, indeed, to Adam.

The NT authors' claims about his varying lineagues may meet Christian standards for defining someone as acceptable in the Jewish community but they don't mee tthe standards given by Hashem for us Jews. Besides there are a lot of Jews who can produce such a list back to Adam, Avraham, Yitzhaq, and Ya'aqov. The difference is whether someone's list can be validated by Jews in the way that Hashem commanded in the Torah. The two differing lists in the NT do not meet this requirement. This may have been why Paul was trying to convince his followers to not be involved in debates about geneologies.

You guys have your standards and we have different standards that Hashem commanded us to have.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Actually, any arguement used against the Torah doesn't bother me. We Jews are commanded to challange and question everything inlcuding what is in the Torah.

The differnce is that we have answers to the questions. Including the ones of who witnessed various events and how they are established historically.

For example:
  1. The Israelis who received the Torah have descendants who are still existing today. There is no problem there. If we want to compare that to the original Jewish Christians - the original Jewish Christians left no clearly indentified deescendants and their movement completely died out in the Jewish world within 2 generations. So on this point there is no comparison.
  2. The text of the Torah that was transmitted to Israel is was not done so anonymously like the gospels were. The claim of Torah authorship to Moses comes from within the Jewish nation and not external to it. The only claim that identifies the auhors of the Gospels come from the Church Fathers. They themselves were not Jews and did not have accounts of receiving them from Jews.
These two issues are more than likely perfectly acceptable to Christians; that is not my arguement. Christians have standards special to them which they are free to have.

These standards, of Christian origin, are not acceptable to Jews and Noachides because Hashem commanded Jews and Noachides to stay away from that kind of record. So, if for you the Torah and the NT are equal to each other then that is something that is for you. It is the kind of thinking that Jews and Noachides were warned by Hashem to stay away from.

I would claim exactly the same authority for the New Testament. It was delivered by God to the Jews, and through the Jews to the rest of the world. The documentary evidence supporting these scriptures is very strong. You don't need family history to establish a line of descent because Jesus was the last generation established according to descent. Matthew 1:1 reads, 'The book of the generation of Jesus Christ'. It's one generation because all who receive Christ by faith are of the body of Christ, not independent of him.

The Gospels are not anonymous; they bear the names of the writers and give specific accounts of the various roles of Jesus as anointed Messiah, Servant, Son of Man and Son of God. The witnesses are numerous, and the message that bears their names has been carried forward in an unbroken manner ever since. Your criticism of the New Testament scriptures does not hold true to the facts.

The prophetic week of Genesis will eventually establish the truth of Jesus' claims to be the Messiah. As the Talmud states, the Messiah for Jews should have appeared in the fifth millennium but (through blindness, or sin) he appeared not. So now the final episode has to be played out. Jews must be recalled to their land, and the process of refining must begin. But repentance is still required, and what does that mean?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
That's great! Because we're not taking a middle ground and we do call him a liar and a false prophet. :)
Why would you think otherwise?

I like to know the bottom line! At least we can now discuss the issue from. the standpoint of your total rejection.

Does this mean that you also reject all the miracles that he is said to have performed?

What do you think Jesus intended to gain from his lies and deceit?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I like to know the bottom line! At least we can now discuss the issue from. the standpoint of your total rejection.
That's fine. I'm just honestly surprised that you never knew this about Jews.
Does this mean that you also reject all the miracles that he is said to have performed?
The view: he may have performed them and he may have not, but either way, they don't prove anything about him, other than that he may have been talented (beyond woodwork).
What do you think Jesus intended to gain from his lies and deceit?
Depends if you agree with the Christian version of Jesus or any of the Jewish versions of Jesus.
Christian version - it seems that he was unintentionally lying and thought he was doing good, but actually wasn't. It's like what Rabbi Moshe Luzzatto wrote about the false prophet Tzidkiyyah ben Kna'anah: he knew he was trying to call on a prophecy from Ba'al but he was such a newbie in his field that when the dark-force-prophecy came, he thought he had received a real prophecy from God. Jesus thought he was doing good but was actually doing bad.

The Jewish versions, described in the Talmud, depict different individuals called "Yeshu" doing witchcraft, worshipping idols and leading others astray. Why does any person do this? They fall to the pull of their evil inclination. In one story, it sort of seems like he's exacting revenge against his own teacher and rabbi.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Actually, it is recognized by Jews that some of what Isaiah said was prophecy, and that prophecy doesn't necessarily mean "prediction of the future." Until you understand what Jews know, you will keep saying silly things. At this point, you clearly don't understand.

This means that you didn't read any of the explanations which answered the "why did Isaiah prophesy..." If you can't be bothered to read the answers then I can't help you.

Prophecy, biblically speaking, also includes encouragement in difficult circumstances, yes. Now all you have to do is figure out for yourself why God felt it necessary to tell Jewish people that might die near rich people or near wicked people. :)

The servant songs of Isaiah, especially 52-53, are so obviously describing Yeshua, that it seems (as usual for non-believing Jews) that all kinds of hoops are jumped through to avoid the obvious. No one can reasonably argue I can't find the singular in the passage, for example. I was Bar Mitzvah and had access since childhood to Soncino and other very fine Jewish English translations.

I did read all your answers. I'm still waiting for answers to the questions posed by the passage, answers that are comprehensible and a little bit comprehensive.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I would claim exactly the same authority for the New Testament. It was delivered by God to the Jews, and through the Jews to the rest of the world.

You claim that but Jews from the 1st cent until now don't claim it. The only Jews who did claim it disappeared within two generations of their start. The Torah makes it clear that when that happens that group was not holding by the Torah that Hashem gave at Mount Sinai.

Again, what you are stating is a Christian standard that Christians hold by. That is up to you to decide for yourself to go by. Yet, Torah based Jews and Noachides know different. The difference is that we aren't trying to prove it to you or convince you to do something different than what you are.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
It means that he could trace his lineage back to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And, indeed, to Adam.
Ehhh...his genealogy is quite confusing. And for all we know, he may have been a mamzer, a bas**** by Jewish standards. So...I'll go with no on that one.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I like to know the bottom line! At least we can now discuss the issue from. the standpoint of your total rejection.

Does this mean that you also reject all the miracles that he is said to have performed?

What do you think Jesus intended to gain from his lies and deceit?

For what purpose is such a discussion needed? If you want to know what we Jews hold by that has aleady been provided in a great amount of detail. We Jews already know what the various types of Christianities hold by. So it would seem that only goal of such a discussion, from the Christian side is to have a never ending debate.

So answer all your questions here it is.
  1. There is no historical evidence to prove to Jews that the NT is a reliable source of information.
    • The method of evidence is provided in the Hebrew Tanakh and has already been provided on this thread.
  2. There is no trustworthy evidence to the authorship of the gospels.
  3. The NT gospels contains information that is claimed to be historical but has been debunked various historians.
  4. When NT supportors are asked simply questions that Hashem required Jews to present when claims are made, like those in the NT, the NT supportors often don't have any answers what so ever, they ignore the question, or they try to ask a question rather than answering it.
  5. The NT contains information that Hashem warned Jews and Noachides to stay away from.
  6. The NT contains information that has caused the death, toture, and destruction of Jews/Jewish communities at the hands of followers of Jesus and adherants to the NT.
  7. The NT contains information that has caused numerous Jews to be forced out of keeping the Torah as Hashem gave it at Mount Sinai.
  8. The NT authors make claims about an individual called Jesus that was Jews know is not historically accurate.
  9. The NT makes claims about Jesus that contradict what the Tanakh states concerning a future Davidic king.
  10. The Hebrew Tanakh is clear that there is no such thing as rejecting the Davidic king who will be the mashiahh.
    • The results of his actions will cause so much adherance to the Torah in the land of Israel that there is no such thing as "rejecting him."
    • If he makes claims that are not proven from the Hebrew Tanakh and(or) if he dies not doing what the Hebrew Tanakh states then Hashem has declared that he was not mashi'ahh and may not have even been a Davidic king.
  11. The Torah commands Jews to distance ourselves from individuals like the Jesus who inspired the NT, as it is written by the NT authors, based on the above 1-9.
  12. If adherants to the NT want to prove to us Jews and Noachides something from the NT they [adherants to the NT] must adhere to doing so as Hashem gave us in the Hebrew Torah to investigate a matter.
So, there you have it. Short answers that pretty much covers every question you have asked and will ask about why we Jews are as we are.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Does this mean that you also reject all the miracles that he is said to have performed?

What do you think Jesus intended to gain from his lies and deceit?

Can you provide names of about 15 Jews who state thier names, father's names, and tribal descent their account that they witnessed those miracles? The NT claims that Jesus fed 5,000 Jews so you should have no problem providing the names of some of those Jews who claim they witnessed them. BTW the NT gospel authors did not write their accounts as they witnessed and names of the gospel authors were slapped on their by the Church Fathers.

Given that there are a number of Jewish texts that claim that various rabbis in Jewish history were doing miracles you would have to prove that the Hebrew Tanakh classifies miracles as a method of determinging who is a Davidic king and prove a method of determing how one makes a distinction if 100 Jews are able to perform the same exact miracles.

If you can do that then maybe we have something to talk about. If not, then like I said before it would appears that your side is seeking endless debate.

In terms of what Jesus intended to gain from lies and deceit. If he even existed at all, which some people doubt, he probably wanted the attention that comes from having a cult following. Similar to David Koresh, Shabbatai Tzvi, Yisrayl Hawkins, the numerous false mashi'ahh's who were in Yemen, Jim Jones, and any other cult leader. Some of them actually beleive they are something more than what they are and the people around them suffer for it.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Christian theology uses a Jewish key to unlock the Hebrew Scriptures.
They didn't need unlocking. The Jews had a pretty good idea what they meant thousands of years before Jesus was a twinkle in his mother's eye. They maintain the understanding they had and have. The Christian understanding of Scripture is nothing like the Jewish understanding of Scripture. The most crazy thing about this is that the Christian understanding came thousands of years after the Jewish one, yet the Christians turn to the Jews and say their understanding is wrong. This is nonsense.

That key is Jesus Christ, and he was more Jewish than any Jew on RFs!
Harel has more Jewishness in his left thumb nail than Jesus ever had in his whole life.

It's a major twisting of facts to suggest that Christian doctrine is derived from Greek thinking.
It is derived from Greek thinking. Many Christians I know actually seem to take a pride in this. You won't find a virgin birth or a hypostatic union or a human-god deity in Jewish thinking.

Jesus was a Jew who claimed to have been sent by God to his own people, not to the Gentiles.
And I guess he completely failed at that. I mean, most Jews aren't Christians.

He became a light to the Gentiles after his ascension to heaven.
I doubt he did any such thing. That unfortunate circumstance is thanks to Paul.

His closest followers, or disciples, during his life on earth, were all Jews.
So? There are many unlearned Jews who go after anything that looks promising. Having a band of followers from rural backwaters, people who can't read or write and haven't learned any indepth theology or Jewish philosophy, are going to be pretty easy to convince.

He, and the people who gathered to listen to his teaching, were all Jews familiar with the Hebrew text of the scriptures.
We don't know that they were.

Jesus claimed to be the one anointed by God to bring deliverance and freedom from spiritual imprisonment.
Yeah, anyone can claim this.

. The power to win physical battles comes not from physical strength but from spiritual strength.
Yeah, if you're doing the right kind of spiritual thing.

Also, it depends on the circumstance. I doubt Assyria or Bavel had any spiritual strength whatsoever, but G-d used them against Israel for his own purposes.


Had Israel accepted Jesus Christ and his anointing, they would have gone on to win their physical battles too.
The Jews are still here. Despite evrything the Christians did to them, they remain. I'd call that pretty impressive.

. But they did not choose this path.
Thank G-d.

So the message of freedom from sin was given to the apostles to spread throughout the world, as a light to the Gentiles.
The option to become a Noahide was already there; they didn't need anything new. It's irritating that Christians seem to throw this by the wayside when it's been there the whole time. No-one ever needed Christianity to be in HaShem's favour.

Why do you think the New Testament was written in Greek?
Because it was the most widely understood language at the time.

God decides on the language of scripture, and God could have chosen to have it written in Hebrew.
So here's the evidence it wasn't G-d breathed. Cool.

. But the choice to have it written in Greek is significant because it tells us that God already knew of Israel's rejection.
Or because Greek was the lingua franca.

He knew that that Israel would reject his call until the end time.
Of course they will. The message is incompatible with Torah.

The message of Jesus is uncompromising. You cannot say that Jesus is a great teacher or inspired spiritual leader without acknowledging all that he taught and did. Nor can you reject Jesus' own claims without also labelling him a liar and false prophet who deserved to die. There is no satisfactory middle ground.
He was a false prophet and he did deserve to die.

Do you think that Jesus, who spoke so compassionately, and who suffered abuse without retaliation, and who healed the sick, should have also be a compulsive liar?
It's possible. It's also possible that the gospel writers put words in his mouth that he never spoke.
 
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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Harel has more Jewishness in his left thumb nail than Jesus ever had in his whole life.
Thank you, but I'm unclear on how one can really quantify Jewishness, in particular, Christians. Either a person is Jewish or they aren't. Jesus probably was. I probably am. That's it.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you, but I'm unclear on how one can really quantify Jewishness, in particular, Christians. Either a person is Jewish or they aren't. Jesus probably was. I probably am. That's it.
I was using my usual hyperbole and dramatics :)

But I meant in practice. Jesus is said to have taught his disciples to break Shabbat, he was nasty to his mother and so on. I doubt you do these.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Prophecy, biblically speaking, also includes encouragement in difficult circumstances, yes. Now all you have to do is figure out for yourself why God felt it necessary to tell Jewish people that might die near rich people or near wicked people. :)
But this has been answered repeatedly already by me and others. All you have to do is figure out why you have been ignoring the answers.
The servant songs of Isaiah, especially 52-53, are so obviously describing Yeshua, that it seems (as usual for non-believing Jews) that all kinds of hoops are jumped through to avoid the obvious.
The servant songs are so obviously and explicitly about Israel that it seems (as usual for misled Christians) that all kinds of hoops are jumped through to avoid the obvious
No one can reasonably argue I can't find the singular in the passage, for example. I was Bar Mitzvah and had access since childhood to Soncino and other very fine Jewish English translations.
That is SO cute! A bar mitzvah! Now you are an expert, ready to teach others! Sadly, you can't find the plural.
I did read all your answers. I'm still waiting for answers to the questions posed by the passage, answers that are comprehensible and a little bit comprehensive.
No, you might have looked at some of them but I think we both know that you couldn't have read them all. The fact that you say that they are not comprehensible (problematic -- what you mean is that they are not comprehensible by YOU; the flaw is not in them) means that you didn't really read them.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
They didn't need unlocking. The Jews had a pretty good idea what they meant thousands of years before Jesus was a twinkle in his mother's eye. They maintain the understanding they had and have. The Christian understanding of Scripture is nothing like the Jewish understanding of Scripture. The most crazy thing about this is that the Christian understanding came thousands of years after the Jewish one, yet the Christians turn to the Jews and say their understanding is wrong. This is nonsense.


Harel has more Jewishness in his left thumb nail than Jesus ever had in his whole life.


It is derived from Greek thinking. Many Christians I know actually seem to take a pride in this. You won't find a virgin birth or a hypostatic union or a human-god deity in Jewish thinking.


And I guess he completely failed at that. I mean, most Jews aren't Christians.


I doubt he did any such thing. That unfortunate circumstance is thanks to Paul.


So? There are many unlearned Jews who go after anything that looks promising. Having a band of followers from rural backwaters, people who can't read or write and haven't learned any indepth theology or Jewish philosophy, are going to be pretty easy to convince.


We don't know that they were.


Yeah, anyone can claim this.


Yeah, if you're doing the right kind of spiritual thing.

Also, it depends on the circumstance. I doubt Assyria or Bavel had any spiritual strength whatsoever, but G-d used them against Israel for his own purposes.



The Jews are still here. Despite evrything the Christians did to them, they remain. I'd call that pretty impressive.


Thank G-d.


The option to become a Noahide was already there; they didn't need anything new. It's irritating that Christians seem to throw this by the wayside when it's been there the whole time. No-one ever needed Christianity to be in HaShem's favour.


Because it was the most widely understood language at the time.


So here's the evidence it wasn't G-d breathed. Cool.


Or because Greek was the lingua franca.


Of course they will. The message is incompatible with Torah.


He was a false prophet and he did deserve to die.


It's possible. It's also possible that the gospel writers put words in his mouth that he never spoke.

Can you provide names of about 15 Jews who state thier names, father's names, and tribal descent their account that they witnessed those miracles? The NT claims that Jesus fed 5,000 Jews so you should have no problem providing the names of some of those Jews who claim they witnessed them. BTW the NT gospel authors did not write their accounts as they witnessed and names of the gospel authors were slapped on their by the Church Fathers.

Given that there are a number of Jewish texts that claim that various rabbis in Jewish history were doing miracles you would have to prove that the Hebrew Tanakh classifies miracles as a method of determinging who is a Davidic king and prove a method of determing how one makes a distinction if 100 Jews are able to perform the same exact miracles.

If you can do that then maybe we have something to talk about. If not, then like I said before it would appears that your side is seeking endless debate.

In terms of what Jesus intended to gain from lies and deceit. If he even existed at all, which some people doubt, he probably wanted the attention that comes from having a cult following. Similar to David Koresh, Shabbatai Tzvi, Yisrayl Hawkins, the numerous false mashi'ahh's who were in Yemen, Jim Jones, and any other cult leader. Some of them actually beleive they are something more than what they are and the people around them suffer for it.

Did Jesus speak lies?

These are the words Jesus spoke; 'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.'

Are these the words of a liar?
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Did Jesus speak lies?

These are the words Jesus spoke; 'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.'

Are these the words of a liar?

There is no evidence that such a person named Jesus, as described in the NT, existed or even said what you wrote above. I.e. the author's of the NT (one to two generations after the events they are claiming happened) are the only ones who claim that such a person said such a thing. So, historically the authors of the NT were willing to lie and they had no problem inserting information about Jews they described as breaking Torah as Hashem gave it at Mount Sinai.

Asking if Jesus was a liar is like asking if Harry Potter was a liar.

Thus, the statements you mention above don't have any meaning to us Torah based Jews since we have always known that the Torah is correct, Hashem gave it, and that Torath Mosheh has been kept.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There is no evidence that such a person named Jesus, as described in the NT, existed...
And one could say the same about Adam, Abraham, Moshe, etc. IOW, it's hard to prove much of anything that may or may not have taken place thousands of years ago.

Thus, I pretty much question anything and everything, including my own sanity at times.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
And one could say the same about Adam, Abraham, Moshe, etc. IOW, it's hard to prove much of anything that may or may not have taken place thousands of years ago.

Thus, I pretty much question anything and everything, including my own sanity at times.

I don't have a problem with someone saying that. Besides, if Adam, Abraham, and Moshe didn't exist then there goes the entire NT. Let's keep things in perspective. The NT relies on the Hebrew Tanakh to be true BUT the Tanakh doesn't rely on the NT to be true. i.e. if the NT is proven wrong there is no effect on the Hebrew Tanakh, Torath Mosheh, or Jews at all. If the Tanakh is proven to be false there goes the entire NT.

So, what exactly is the point again?
 
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