Atheism vs Theism

[vartaaha]

best post.

 

[Trailblazer]

Second, Pascal's argument presumes that we can choose what we believe, after evaluating which beliefs will or won't benefit us. This is simply not how beliefs work. As I've argued elsewhere, to believe means to be genuinely convinced something is true. If I genuinely believe God exists, I can't just wake up tomorrow and decide I'm not convinced of that anymore because I don't see it benefitting me. Similarly, no atheist can simply decide that they believe in God now because it might somehow benefit them to do so. So Pascal's whole premise of how belief works doesn't match reality.

No, that is not how beliefs work. One either believes that God exists or one does not believe that God exists, or one is unsure, which basically amounts to not believing God exists. An atheist can no more believe that God exists just because he wants to believe that than believer can disbelieve that God exists because he wants to disbelieve that God exists. One either sees evidence for God's existence or one sees no evidence for God's existence.

If an atheist wagered that God exists just to get the reward and avoid the punishment, but that atheist did not really believe in God, the All-Knowing God would know the atheist was just pretending in order to get a reward and avoid the punishment that would not bode well with God, because God wants sincere believers, not fakes. So Imo it is better for atheists to hold to their position of non-belief unless they have the evidence they require in order to really believe that God exists.

 

[questfortruth]

because God wants sincere believers, not fakes

No. The practicing theism (practical theism) is good as well. Why? Because Jesus has said: "I will judge by deeds." As well Jesus said: "I do not want the death of a sinner."

There is no hell.

If there is no hell, then there is no bottom of hell. Hence, hell has no bottom. It is the "bottomless pit" (Bible).

 

[questfortruth]

On the contrary, atheists are very close to most monotheists: we simply believe in one fewer deity among many.

I afraid, that not. They are infinitely remote. All good religions are angry against abortions and suicide. The atheism allows them. Thus, the atheism comes from satan, theism comes from God. "There is nothing in common between good and evil" (cf. Bible).

 

[Howard Is]

If there is no hell, then there is no bottom of hell. Hence, hell has no bottom. It is the "bottomless pit" (Bible).

Why did I bother ?
Your illogic is a bottomless pit.
I’ll leave you to it.

 

[questfortruth]

Why did I bother ?
Your illogic is a bottomless pit.
I’ll leave you to it.

The atheists have no chance to defeat the logic of a single theist. Why? Because God's names are Truth, Logic, Mindfulness, and Reason. Theists always win the logic battle: "Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit." Mark 13:11 NIV

 

[Trailblazer]

No. The practicing theism (practical theism) is good as well. Why? Because Jesus has said: "I will judge by deeds." As well Jesus said: "I do not want the death of a sinner."

Whereas deeds are necessary...

Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Deeds are not enough to gain eternal life. Belief is also necessary:

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[questfortruth]

Whereas deeds are necessary...

Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Deeds are not enough to gain eternal life. Belief is also necessary:

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

The faith is the faithfulness. If an atheist would faithfully follow the 10 commandments, including "Love your God", he can go to Heaven through practical theism. How could atheists love a "fictional" character? No problem, in my youth I was loving Robin Hood and took examples from him. It was my "invisible friend."

 

[Trailblazer]

The faith is the faithfulness. If an atheist would faithfully follow the 10 commandments, including "Love your God", he can go to Heaven through practical theism. How could atheists love a "fictional" character? No problem, in my youth I was loving Robin Hood and took examples from him. It was my "invisible friend."

Atheists cannot sincerely love a God they do not believe exists.... but that does not mean that cannot get to heaven.

 

[ppp]

Atheists cannot sincerely love a God they do not believe exists.... but that does not mean that cannot get to heaven.

Do you think that your heaven would be heaven for me? Or hell?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Any entity that falls for Pascal's Wager does not deserve to be called God

This.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you think that your heaven would be heaven for me? Or hell?

I have no idea. God has kept the nature of the afterlife under His Hat.

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings, pp. 345-346

 

[ppp]

I have no idea. God has kept the nature of the afterlife under His Hat.

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings, pp. 345-346

Well, Considering that I find several of the Baha'i views to be profoundly immoral, I would tend to think not. Do you consider Tony representative of the Baha't outlook? Because his views are the type of structure that I would burn to the ground. And then dance on the embers.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, Considering that I find several of the Baha'i views to be profoundly immoral, I would tend to think not. Do you consider Tony representative of the Baha't outlook? Because his views are the type of structure that I would burn to the ground. And then dance on the embers.

Baha'is vary in their views so nobody is representative.
What do you consider profoundly immoral about what Tony said?

What does this have to do with heaven and hell?

 

[viole]

If an atheist becomes more like Orthodox Christian (atheist becomes closer to Orthodox Christianity), then he becomes closer to any religion, e.g. pantheism, Islam, Catholicism, antropotheism, deism.

Proof:

Atheism is infinitely remote from any religion.

Thus, the Pascal Wager has perfect sense. It is the step to improvement.

The theist thinks, that for any person the step towards God is an improvement. The atheism is infinitely remote from any theism and from any religion. Thus, if any atheist becomes more like a Christian, he becomes more like a Muslim. And if any atheist becomes more like a Muslim, he becomes more like a Christian. That is all message I bring in.


I mean, if an atheist would accept Christianity, he would become closer to Islam than ever before.


You would become "practical theist." You could ask the local church community: "are practical theists in Heaven?" Faith is deeds. Faith is faithfulness.


I have answered the question. The question was: what if an atheist starts to read the prayers, to go to church (and go through all the ceremonies, including baptism), to make good deeds, does he become saved from hell? If all that time he would remain an atheist? He would be practical theist. Hence - theist: "I will judge by deeds" (Jesus Christ).



No. The practicing theism (practical theism) is good as well. Why? Because Jesus has said: "I will judge by deeds." As well Jesus said: "I do not want the death of a sinner."


The faith is the faithfulness. If an atheist would faithfully follow the 10 commandments, including "Love your God", he can go to Heaven through practical theism. How could atheists love a "fictional" character? No problem, in my youth I was loving Robin Hood and took examples from him. It was my "invisible friend."



If there is no hell, then there is no bottom of hell. Hence, hell has no bottom. It is the "bottomless pit" (Bible).


I afraid, that not. They are infinitely remote. All good religions are angry against abortions and suicide. The atheism allows them. Thus, the atheism comes from satan, theism comes from God. "There is nothing in common between good and evil" (cf. Bible).


The atheists have no chance to defeat the logic of a single theist. Why? Because God's names are Truth, Logic, Mindfulness, and Reason. Theists always win the logic battle: "Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit." Mark 13:11 NIV
If an atheist becomes more like Orthodox Christian (atheist becomes closer to Orthodox Christianity), then he becomes closer to any religion, e.g. pantheism, Islam, Catholicism, antropotheism, deism.

Proof:

Atheism is infinitely remote from any religion.

Thus, the Pascal Wager has perfect sense. It is the step to improvement.

The theist thinks, that for any person the step towards God is an improvement. The atheism is infinitely remote from any theism and from any religion. Thus, if any atheist becomes more like a Christian, he becomes more like a Muslim. And if any atheist becomes more like a Muslim, he becomes more like a Christian. That is all message I bring in.


I mean, if an atheist would accept Christianity, he would become closer to Islam than ever before.


You would become "practical theist." You could ask the local church community: "are practical theists in Heaven?" Faith is deeds. Faith is faithfulness.


I have answered the question. The question was: what if an atheist starts to read the prayers, to go to church (and go through all the ceremonies, including baptism), to make good deeds, does he become saved from hell? If all that time he would remain an atheist? He would be practical theist. Hence - theist: "I will judge by deeds" (Jesus Christ).



No. The practicing theism (practical theism) is good as well. Why? Because Jesus has said: "I will judge by deeds." As well Jesus said: "I do not want the death of a sinner."


The faith is the faithfulness. If an atheist would faithfully follow the 10 commandments, including "Love your God", he can go to Heaven through practical theism. How could atheists love a "fictional" character? No problem, in my youth I was loving Robin Hood and took examples from him. It was my "invisible friend."



If there is no hell, then there is no bottom of hell. Hence, hell has no bottom. It is the "bottomless pit" (Bible).


I afraid, that not. They are infinitely remote. All good religions are angry against abortions and suicide. The atheism allows them. Thus, the atheism comes from satan, theism comes from God. "There is nothing in common between good and evil" (cf. Bible).


The atheists have no chance to defeat the logic of a single theist. Why? Because God's names are Truth, Logic, Mindfulness, and Reason. Theists always win the logic battle: "Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit." Mark 13:11 NIV

I think it is plausible that if God exists, then He would send to hell all who believed in Gods, including Him or Her, without evidence, and to heaven all the ones who did not. Because that is what He would have disbelieved too, by being so mega smart and all, and on account of having created us in His image.

Ergo, I am sure pretty sure He or She would consider the intellectual sin of believing in gods without evidence an abomination.

Therefore, the Pascal wager, mutatis mutandis, is more dangerous for you guys.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Polymath257]

I afraid, that not. They are infinitely remote. All good religions are angry against abortions and suicide. The atheism allows them. Thus, the atheism comes from satan, theism comes from God. "There is nothing in common between good and evil" (cf. Bible).

Many 'good religions' support a woman's right to her own body concerning abortion. I'm not sure what your spin is on suicide, but I don't support it unless there is a painful, terminal disease, in which case, many religions do as well.

Since i believe in neither Satan nor God, your classification just seems wrong to me.

 

[Polymath257]

The atheists have no chance to defeat the logic of a single theist. Why? Because God's names are Truth, Logic, Mindfulness, and Reason. Theists always win the logic battle: "Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit." Mark 13:11 NIV

If God is those things, many theists are infinitely far away from God. Truth, Logic, Mindfulness, and Reason are not shown by many theists. And they are shown by quite a few atheists as far as I can see.

It's just that most theists often haven't really studied logic, let alone how to access truth and fail to use reason on their own beliefs.

 

[questfortruth]

the intellectual sin of believing in gods without evidence

Any knowledge is defined as knowledge, which has the God of that human. First comes God, then comes the science.

 

[ppp]

Baha'is vary in their views so nobody is representative.

That's silly. If there were not representative Baha'i views, then you would be unable to recognize the difference between being Baha'i and not being Baha'i.

What do you consider profoundly immoral about what Tony said?

As for instance...

What does this have to do with heaven and hell?

It was a continuing thought from what you said earlier:

Atheists cannot sincerely love a God they do not believe exists.... but that does not mean that cannot get to heaven.

If I find a given god of a given heaven to be immoral, getting into that heaven would be hell.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Don't forget religions like Satanism, Setianism and Demonolatry.

I was just about to mention Satanism!