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El Shaddai

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
So, for those of us with little or no proficiency in Biblical Hebrew and/or Koine Greek, how might one say ...

"do not confuse denotation and connotation"​

... in those ancient languages?
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Alright. Brother, in Hebrew, El means power or might. Elohim means powers or the plural of might. El Shaddai has El which in its root means "power" which you have not considered. Thus, this mountain matter has been addressed by the meaning of El, which is "power". I understand that El is directly represented by Ho Theos, but Theos means divinity, El means Power. The root meanings are different. In your analysis I would urge that you include this part rather than dismissing it as Elohim is represented by Ho Theos in the septuagint.

Mind you I am no expert in Hebrew and the Jewish brothers here can of course correct me and anyone else since there are some pretty scholarly Jews here. I dont mean this in any derogatory manner but Jews are generally far more educated in their scripture than any other average person.

So lets hear what they have to say.

Bottomline is though El or Elohim is directly represents the word God, or Ho Theos, there is a root meaning to the word. And that itself represents "power" or "might". Every single combination of words that represents God or even another persons God in the Hebrew Bible with the word El in it represents power. This is one of the reasons El Shaddai though some scholars like McKim would translate it as God, the one of the mountains, this word God here is actually meaning "Power". So does El Elyon and Elohim.

I honestly dont know how Ho Theos is translated into Hebrew because these two are very different languages. The Arabic word Allah is a direct translation of the Ho Theos exactly. Theos means iLah or Aluhia in arabic. But I dont know the Hebrew direct translation of the meaning of Ho Theos.

Anyway, my belief is that the Greek language is superimposed into a Hebrew text and it misrepresents the original meaning. You are right. But when you go to roots, go to the roots of everything.

Ho Theos as I understand can be directly translated in to Aramaic as Alaha and I can relate to that closely.

Cheers.
Very interesting. But you should have posted this in the other thread of mine I linked.
This thread is about the word Shaddai.
And how it is not related to Omnipotence.
Thanks for your contribution, btw.:)

PS. Sister, not brother.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Very interesting. But you should have posted this in the other thread of mine I linked.
This thread is about the word Shaddai.
And how it is not related to Omnipotence.
Thanks for your contribution, btw.:)

PS. Sister, not brother.

Ah dang. There has to be some sign to say if you are a sis or bro. Now I have my foot in my mouth. -_-

Apologies sis. :)
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
So, for those of us with little or no proficiency in Biblical Hebrew and/or Koine Greek, how might one say ...

"do not confuse denotation and connotation"​

... in those ancient languages?
Ancient Greek is not a polysemic language.
It has a very complex verbal system and each word has a pretty univocal meaning.
Unlike Hebrew, I suppose.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
@Estro Felino in a book I'm reading now called Kadmoniyot ("antiquities" in Hebrew), the author, R' Ahron Marcus, suggests that the meaning of Shad-dai may be "merciful". He bases this suggestion on the meaning of two Assyrian words: Shadadu (שדדו) - loved mercy and Shudud (שודוד) - was merciful. To clarify, he isn't suggesting that the word Shad-dai (שד-י) is Assyrian in origin, but that all three words share a common Semitic linguistic root.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Ancient Greek is not a polysemic language.
It has a very complex verbal system and each word has a pretty univocal meaning.
Unlike Hebrew, I suppose.
So you've said. All I know is that I requested a translation and you gave me a lecture. No fun at all.

By the way, do you realize that you share a birthday with Mary Todd Lincoln and Dick Van Dyke - which should be more than enough to dissuade you or anyone else from having too much faith in astrology.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
So you've said. All I know is that I requested a translation and you gave me a lecture. No fun at all.

By the way, do you realize that you share a birthday with Mary Todd Lincoln and Dick Van Dyke - which should be more than enough to dissuade you or anyone else from having too much faith in astrology.
In a parallel universe I would have married Dick Van Dyke :p:blush:
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
So what do you guys think?
I think you come up with the neatest OP from time to time. :thumbsup:

Screenshot_2020-09-09 Genesis 17 1.png


I love that verse, precisely because it says that YHWH Himself personally appeared to Abram.
So, here's a Hebrew version of that verse (from chabad.org Bereisheet - Genesis - Chapter 17 (Parshah Lech Lecha))
  • וַיְהִ֣י אַבְרָ֔ם בֶּן־תִּשְׁעִ֥ים שָׁנָ֖ה וְתֵ֣שַׁע שָׁנִ֑ים וַיֵּרָ֨א יְהֹוָ֜ה אֶל־אַבְרָ֗ם וַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֵלָיו֙ אֲנִי־אֵ֣ל שַׁדַּ֔י הִתְהַלֵּ֥ךְ לְפָנַ֖י וֶֽהְיֵ֥ה תָמִֽים
And here's the Septuagint version.
  • εγενετο δε αβραμ ετων ενενηκοντα εννεα και ωφθη κυριος τω αβραμ και ειπεν αυτω εγω ειμι ο θεος σου ευαρεστει εναντιον εμου και γινου αμεμπτος
The very little Greek I knew has faded substantially and I've never studied Hebrew, but from what I can tell, the Hebrew word for "almighty" didn't make it into the Greek version. Do you know where it went?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
In Excursus 11 of the JPS Commentary: Genesis, Nahum Sarna makes a couple of interesting observations:
  • The divine name appears nine times in the Torah, of which three are in poetic texts (Gen. 49:25; Num. 24:4,16). All but two of the Bible's other thirty-nine usages are likewise poetic (Prophets, Psalms, and Job). The prose exceptions (Ruth 1:20-21) are more apparent than real since the Book of Ruth possesses a poetic substratum and frequently displays archaisms. These statistics have an important bearing on the question of the antiquity of usage. The overwhelming appearance in poetic contexts points a priori to a venerable tradition, for Hebrew poetry tends to preserve or consciously to employ early forms of speech.
  • Significantly, of the vast store of biblical personal names, only three are constructed with the element Shaddai. These are Shedeur (=? Shaddai-Ur), Zurishaddai, and Ammishaddai - all appearing solely in the lists of Numbers 1-2. Each is the father of a tribal representative at the time of the Exodus.
He concludes:

In other words, the divine name Shaddai lost its vitality in Israel with the advent of Moses and was preserved only as a literary relic in poetic compositions. ... The great antiquity of the name and its obsolescence in Israel in the Mosaic period explain why there are no consistent traditions as to its meaning and why the ancient versions have no uniform rendering.​

We seem to be left with more or less informed conjecture ...

^ and this is one of the things that makes Torah so interesting. :)
:confused:

The divine name in the OP is only listed 5 times when I searched.

Gen 17:1
Gen 35:11
Gen 48:3
Ezek 10:5
Jb 13:3.

It seems like your source is focusing on just Shin-dalet-yud which is very different from the two word title. Omitting Aleph-lamed (E-l) would does not describe "All mighty" G-d.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Alright. Brother, in Hebrew, El means power or might.
No.

It's all about kindness.
Elohim means powers or the plural of might.
Yes, thru the multiplicity of nature.
El Shaddai has El which in its root means "power"
I reassert, no. The first part of name is divine kindess, the second part divine might. One who is infinitely kind and infinitely mighty is truly All-mighty.

Question, do you have a source for your derivation which equates E-l with might?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
This thread is about the word Shaddai.
And how it is not related to Omnipotence.

So, just to be clear, which title/name are.you interested in? The two word title in the OP, or just the single word title listed above? They're different titles/names.
 
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