Jesus is Coming

[Trailblazer]

Is that why Moses & Noah & Abraham & David etc never went to heaven (John 3:13) even though David was his god's begotten son (Psalm 2:7)?

I do not believe they never went to heaven.

What does John 3:13 mean? Did no one go to heaven before Jesus?

In John 3:13 Jesus said, "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man." Some have understood these words to mean no one went to heaven before Jesus. Is this true?

A look at the larger discussion of Jesus in this chapter demonstrates this is not true. Jesus was speaking with Nicodemus, a Jewish teacher who had come to Him at night with questions about the kingdom of God. The emphasis was on Jesus having the authority to teach on eternal life because He alone had come down from heaven to earth. The NLT translates the verse, "No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven."

Verse 17 further illustrates this point. Jesus stated, "For God did not sent his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." Again, the emphasis is on Jesus coming to earth from heaven.

Other passages also illustrate the fact that some people went to heaven (or paradise) before Jesus came to earth. For example, in His response to the religious leaders in Mark 12:26-27, Jesus answered, "And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

In addition, two men in the Bible were taken up to heaven without dying. Genesis 5:24 marks the event of Enoch entering directly into heaven (also Hebrews 11:5). Second Kings 2:11 records Elijah being taken to heaven by a whirlwind with chariots of fire separating him from Elisha. In Luke 16:19-30, Jesus shares an account of Lazarus in heaven at Abraham's side. This would indicate Abraham being in heaven before Jesus came to earth.

Hebrews 11 furthers includes a lengthy list of Old Testament saints who followed the Lord by faith. Though not explicitly stated, these individuals were noted as God's people who lived for Him and dwell with Him beyond earthly life.

Further, to make the claim no one went to heaven before Jesus provides many inconsistencies with other biblical passages that speak of God's people in eternity with Him. It is much more consistent with the context of John 3 as well as the rest of Scripture to understand Jesus referring to Himself as the one who came from heaven, giving Him authority to speak to Nicodemus regarding eternal life.

What does John 3:13 mean? Did no one go to heaven before Jesus?

 

[Mitty]

How do you know they never went to heaven?

Cos John 3:13 says they didn't go to heaven since they didn't repent and weren't born again and didn't believe in Jesus.

And where does the OT say that Moses or Noah or Abraham etc ever went to heaven?

Or don't you believe what the bible actually says, given that John 3:13 was written over 70 years after Jesus was executed by the Romans for sedition and mocked as the false "King of the Jews"?

 

[Mitty]

Who were the grandparents of Noah? And when did they die in relation to the flood? Who was the mother of Noah and in what year did she die? Name any grandchildren of Noah who lived before the flood?

Come on mate, instead of rambling rubbish, show us the evidence to support anything that you have said?.

Have you ever actually read the the bible? Either way, Gen 5 says that Methusael was Noah's grandfather and that he was 369 "years" old when Noah was born, and therefore drowned at aged 969 "years" old when Noah was 600 "years" old.

Do you have any evidence that Noah's mother and her mother-in-law didn't also drown with Noah's grandfather and his other children and grandchildren.

And it's your fantasy story, not mine, and I stopped believing in Santa and fantasies over 65 years ago. And it's your choice if you want to believe that no one drowned in that particular flood except Noah's grandfather (Gen 5:27).

You know it makes sense!!!

 

[The Anointed]

Have you ever actually read the the bible? Either way, Gen 5 says that Methusael was Noah's grandfather and that he was 369 "years" old when Noah was born, and therefore drowned at aged 969 "years" old when Noah was 600 "years" old.

Do you have any evidence that Noah's mother and her mother-in-law didn't also drown with her father-in-law and Noah's other children and grandchildren.

And it's your fantasy story, not mine, and I stopped believing in Santa and fantasies over 65 years ago.

You know it makes sense!!!

Mitty wrote..... Have you ever actually read the the bible? Either way, Gen 5 says that Methusael was Noah's grandfather and that he was 369 "years" old when Noah was born, and therefore drowned at aged 969 "years" old when Noah was 600 "years" old.

It become obvious that you do not have the capacity to comprehend that which you have read.

Methuselah, indeed did die in the year of the flood, but his death foretold the flood that was to come after he died, as has already been explained to you, who apparently are not mentally equipped to grasp what you had read, so let me here repeat.

The flood of Noah didn’t come as a surprise. It had been preached on for four generations. Something strange happened when Enoch was 65, from which time “He walked with God.” Enoch was given a prophecy that as long as his firstborn son ‘Methuselah’ was alive, the judgement of the flood would be withheld, but as soon as he died, the flood would be sent forth.

Enoch named his firstborn to reflect this prophecy. The name Methuselah comes from two roots: muth, a root that means death, and from shalach, which means ‘To Bring’ or ‘To Send Forth.’ Thus, the name Methuselah signifies, ‘His Death Shall Bring.’ And, indeed, in the year that Methuselah died, the flood came.

Methuselah did not drown in the flood as you so erroneously believe, but his death signaled to all, that the flood was coming.

Mitty wrote...... Do you have any evidence that Noah's mother and her mother-in-law didn't also drown with her father-in-law and Noah's other children and grandchildren.

Nope! There is no record anywhere as to when Betenos, the wife of Lamech and mother to Noah, or her mother-in-law, Edna the daughter of Azrial, the wife of Methuselah, died. But we do know that Lamech the father of Noah, who did not drown in the flood, as you so erroneously believe, but died 5 years before the flood, so perhaps his wife and his mother had also died before the flood.

So anyone who claims that Methuselah, his wife, and their son Lamech, and his wife, were drowned in the flood, is totally ignorant to the scriptures and is talking absolute rubbish as far as the scriptures are concerned.

You don't have the corona virus, Do you?

You said that I know it makes sense, but you are wrong young fellow, what I know is; "That nothing that you have said on this forum, makes any sense at all."

 

[ecco]

So, all the people that God horribly drowned will all be brought back to life. And all the pregnant women that He horribly drowned will have their dead fetuses put back into their wombs.

Will He bring back all the lambs and kittens that He horribly drowned?

Huh? The people who drowned in the Flood was by divine execution.
At Armageddon the people who are destroyed are by divine execution for the executional words from Jesus' mouth will destroy the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4.
There is No forgiveness for the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32.
Just as in Noah's day people are warned to ' repent ' if they do Not want to ' perish ' ( be destroyed ) - 2 Peter 3:9
Remember: Jesus' ransom covers MANY and Not all as per Matthew 20:28.
We can choose to be part of the MANY ( the great crowd of people as per Revelation 7:9,14)

Perhaps you should have addressed your comment to ...
(my emphasis)

The entire earth will be transformed into a paradise. And all dead will be brought back to life, all dead that are in God's memory. How many that is only he knows. And he also knows it will be no problem for the earth to handle.

 

[ecco]

The issues now facing America were given a solution in the late 1800's.

Specifically what issues are you referring to?
Specifically what solutions for those issues were given and how were they given?

 

[ecco]

B/c people did and do misunderstand the true nature of the kingdom. It is not literal.

If it is not literal, who decides what is or is not true? Or is that the reason there are 30,000 "Christian" sects?

 

[Mitty]

Methuselah, indeed did die in the year of the flood, but his death foretold the flood that was to come after he died,

As has already been explained to you, who apparently are not mentally equipped to grasp what you had read, so let me here repeat.
Where does the bible say that Noah's grandfather didn't drown, given that the bible says he was 369 "years" older than Noah (Gen 5)?

Where does the bible say that none of Noah's family drowned and therefore no one drowned, given that the bible says that the only people alive then were all members of Noah's family?

The flood of Noah didn’t come as a surprise. It had been preached on for four generations. Something strange happened when Enoch was 65, from which time “He walked with God.” Enoch was given a prophecy that as long as his firstborn son ‘Methuselah’ was alive, the judgement of the flood would be withheld, but as soon as he died, the flood would be sent forth.

Where does the bible say that (chapter & verse), or did you just make that up?

Enoch named his firstborn to reflect this prophecy. The name Methuselah comes from two roots: muth, a root that means death, and from shalach, which means ‘To Bring’ or ‘To Send Forth.’ Thus, the name Methuselah signifies, ‘His Death Shall Bring.’ And, indeed, in the year that Methuselah died, the flood came.

Where does the bible say that (chapter & verse), or did you just make that up too?

Methuselah did not drown in the flood as you so erroneously believe, but his death signaled to all, that the flood was coming.

Where does the bible say that he didn't drown (chapter & verse), or did you just make that up too?

Mitty wrote...... Do you have any evidence that Noah's mother and her mother-in-law didn't also drown with her father-in-law and Noah's other children and grandchildren.

Nope! There is no record anywhere as to when Betenos, the wife of Lamech and mother to Noah, or her mother-in-law, Edna the daughter of Azrial, the wife of Methuselah, died. But we do know that Lamech the father of Noah, who did not drown in the flood, as you so erroneously believe, but died 5 years before the flood, so perhaps his wife and his mother had also died before the flood.

So anyone who claims that Methuselah, his wife, and their son Lamech, and his wife, were drowned in the flood, is totally ignorant to the scriptures and is talking absolute rubbish as far as the scriptures are concerned.

In other words you have no evidence whatsoever that Noah's widowed mother and grandmother didn't also drown with Noah's grandfather and Noah's aunts and uncles and cousins and brothers and sisters and his other children and grandchildren born before and after Mrs Noah gave birth to triplets at aged 500 "years" old (Gen 5:26-32), given that the bible says that the only people alive then and who drowned were all members of Noah's family.

Nor can you tell us where the bible says that no one drowned as you claim, and that Noah's family had presumably already moved out of the flooded area before the river height rose by 15 cubits and covered the flooded area to the horizon as described in the bible.

But we do know that Lamech the father of Noah,
who did not drown in the flood, as you so erroneously believe,

So what evidence do you have to support your claim that Lamech drowned along with most of his family, given that the bible clearly says that Noah's father had already died 5 or so "years" before Noah's grandfather, and given that I clearly said that only Noah's widowed mother drowned and not her late husband? Or did you dishonestly make that up too? Or aren't you aware of what the word "widowed" means?

You don't have the corona virus, Do you, since nothing that you have said on this forum, makes any sense at all?

 

[ecco]

Funny how sometimes emails stack up in the inbox. I had this today (in this order).

From the pharmacy to you
Jesus is Coming
Obscene Language?

Perhaps my inbox is being prophetic.
Perhaps the Masters of the Simulation we all live in, are communicating with me through my inbox.

If a cursing Jesus does not show up in two weeks, can I dismiss it as just a silly coincidence?
In two months? Years?

 

[Trailblazer]

Cos John 3:13 says they didn't go to heaven since they didn't repent and weren't born again and didn't believe in Jesus.

No, that verse does not say that.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

"A look at the larger discussion of Jesus in this chapter demonstrates this is not true. Jesus was speaking with Nicodemus, a Jewish teacher who had come to Him at night with questions about the kingdom of God. The emphasis was on Jesus having the authority to teach on eternal life because He alone had come down from heaven to earth. The NLT translates the verse, "No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven."

Verse 17 further illustrates this point. Jesus stated, "For God did not sent his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." Again, the emphasis is on Jesus coming to earth from heaven.

Other passages also illustrate the fact that some people went to heaven (or paradise) before Jesus came to earth. For example, in His response to the religious leaders in Mark 12:26-27, Jesus answered, "And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

What does John 3:13 mean? Did no one go to heaven before Jesus?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Specifically what issues are you referring to?
Specifically what solutions for those issues were given and how were they given?

It is great you asked the question, that shows you have a concern that you too see unfolding. Without going into great detail, of how the warnings unfolded, the two most obvouus are;

Race relations, and
Disarmament, except for law.

The consequence of not following what was offered was this;

".... No less serious is the stress and strain imposed on the fabric of American society through the fundamental and persistent neglect, by the governed and governors alike, of the supreme, the inescapable and urgent duty—so repeatedly and graphically represented and stressed by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in His arraignment of the basic weaknesses in the social fabric of the nation—of remedying, while there is yet time, through a revolutionary change in the concept and attitude of the average white American toward his Negro fellow citizen, a situation which, if allowed to drift, will, in the words of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, cause the streets of American cities to run with blood, aggravating thereby the havoc which the fearful weapons of destruction, raining from the air, and amassed by a ruthless, a vigilant, a powerful and inveterate enemy, will wreak upon those same cities.

Thus you can see the warning is also expanded to include that America will yet face another conflict.

I wonder, if the race relations had been addressed, that the other warning may not unfold. I hear people in America, on the news we get, crying out that the Fabric of America is under great danger.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Funny how sometimes emails stack up in the inbox. I had this today (in this order).

From the pharmacy to you
Jesus is Coming
Obscene Language?

Perhaps my inbox is being prophetic.
Perhaps the Masters of the Simulation we all live in, are communicating with me through my inbox.

If a cursing Jesus does not show up in two weeks, can I dismiss it as just a silly coincidence?
In two months? Years?

Maybe you will see Christ's Message in the answer I gave to your question.

God works in Mysterious ways. One day we are just we and the next our heart sees Christ in a new way.

Regards Tony

 

[Nova2216]

If it is not literal, who decides what is or is not true? Or is that the reason there are 30,000 "Christian" sects?

Both literal and figurative scriptures are true. (Ps.119:160)

The trouble comes in when one interprets a literal passage to be figurative. (or the other way around)


More to the point it is church creed books which are the reason for so many different churches (divison).

Why not just use the bible? (1Cor.1:10) (Phl. 3:16) (1Peter 4:11)

1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God;...

 

[Nova2216]

So why did that god make such a silly mistake and what did the god repent to?

That particular flood, however, was only 15 cubits high and had no effect on an olive tree growing outside the flooded area. Nor did it have any effect on kangaroos or sloths etc, nor on our aborigines who arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was a girl.

No mistake was made.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Both literal and figurative scriptures are true. (Ps.119:160)

The trouble comes in when one interprets a literal passage to be figurative. (or the other way around)


More to the point it is church creed books which are the reason for so many different churches (divison).

Why not just use the bible? (1Cor.1:10) (Phl. 3:16) (1Peter 4:11)

1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God;...

Then can you tell us what this is saying?

Ezekiel 43:1 "Afterward he brought me to the gate, the gate that faces toward the east. 2 And behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east. His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory. 3 It was like the appearance of the vision which I saw—like the vision which I saw when I came to destroy the city. The visions were like the vision which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face. 4 And the glory of the Lord came into the temple by way of the gate which faces toward the east. 5 The Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple... "

Regards Tony

 

[Mitty]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

In other words the writers of John 3:13 said that Moses & Noah & Abraham & David etc never went to heaven, despite the inconsistent and contradictory claims written by other biblical writers. But it doesn't say whether or not any women went to heaven.

If you are unhappy with what the writers of John 3:13 said perhaps you could rewrite it or just erase it: But it says what it says.

 

[Mitty]

No mistake was made.

So why did the god repent for creating most of Noah's family and their animals?

 

[Nova2216]

Then can you tell us what this is saying?

Ezekiel 43:1 "Afterward he brought me to the gate, the gate that faces toward the east. 2 And behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east. His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory. 3 It was like the appearance of the vision which I saw—like the vision which I saw when I came to destroy the city. The visions were like the vision which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face. 4 And the glory of the Lord came into the temple by way of the gate which faces toward the east. 5 The Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple... "

Regards Tony

I do not know.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you are unhappy with what the writers of John 3:13 said perhaps you could rewrite it or just erase it: But it says what it says.

But it SAYS different things to different people, depending upon how they INTERPRET the verse.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

To me it says that no man except Jesus has BOTH (a) come down from heaven and (b) ascended up to heaven. The reason is because no man came down from heaven except Jesus, since the soul of Jesus existed in heaven before Jesus came to earth.

It is absurd to believe that nobody went to heaven before Jesus came down from heaven because there were many holy souls who existed before Jesus came down from heaven to earth.

 

[Mitty]

But it SAYS different things to different people, depending upon how they INTERPRET the verse.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

To me it says that no man except Jesus has BOTH (a) come down from heaven and (b) ascended up to heaven. The reason is because no man came down from heaven except Jesus, since the soul of Jesus existed in heaven before Jesus came to earth.

It is absurd to believe that nobody went to heaven before Jesus came down from heaven because there were many holy souls who existed before Jesus came down from heaven to earth.

And that's why there are thousands of Christian denominations and sects. And either way it's still just imaginative words in a book.